Electrical assistance

[jeff.herren]

Folks, In need of some ideas.

I have a bed tilt in my Reatta XL 40Q2 (2020) that started to operate intermittently. I bought an actuator to replace but not the factory as the stock was gone. Same specs other than speed of stroke. Worked well but then it also went intermittent and then completely stopped. Ordered the OEM from MORyde (Entegra parts gave me the part # and contact to order direct as they were out of stock, $168 vs $335)
Installed that motor and before buttoning up tested the function. The motor did not operate at all.
Out came the meter and a battery. Tested the new OEM motor from a 12vdc source and it worked well, tested the non OEM motor, it also worked well. Tested the incoming voltage at 12vdc (+- 0.18). Still the motor does not operate when connected to that power source.
Called Entegra support got the G9 schematics and found the VT control out and the switch (with ground) control out on the G9 board and made sure all connections were tight.
Removed the switch from above the bed (momentary rocker for up/down and tested the voltage but this connection tested at ~10.5vdc. This connection has two power and the ground. I want to remove the momentary switch from the path or isolate at least since the VDC is slightly out of range. I was thinking the rocker switch might be bad but with the voltage at that switch only at 10.5ish I am not so sure.

So, two questions:
1) how can I jumper that connection to bypass the momentary switch? I was thinking jumping across the hot/common feeds (I think that what those two would be)
2) ideas on what I may have missed and that needs testing?

Thanks in advance for ideas.

[alank]

Is there a motor controller that provides the 12V to the motor. If the two motors work OK on a remote 12V power source, they're not the problem. I would be the motor controller, if there is one. Having 10.5V on the rocker switch is of no concern, the motor controller determines what voltage the rocker switch uses, could be anything.

You say you tested incoming voltage at 12.5V, incoming to what or where?

With the system put together, put your voltmeter on the motor wires, where you connected the remote 12V supply, then operate your rocker switch, is there any 12V for the motor at that point?

[jeff.herren]

Originally Posted by alank

Is there a motor controller that provides the 12V to the motor. If the two motors work OK on a remote 12V power source, they're not the problem. I would be the motor controller, if there is one. Having 10.5V on the rocker switch is of no concern, the motor controller determines what voltage the rocker switch uses, could be anything.

You say you tested incoming voltage at 12.5V, incoming to what or where?

With the system put together, put your voltmeter on the motor wires, where you connected the remote 12V supply, then operate your rocker switch, is there any 12V for the motor at that point?

Thanks for the reply, the bed tilt 'controller' is the Vegatouch 9 board in the basement. The rocker switch has the hot and common and ground connecting to one block on that board and the power out to under bed (hot and common no ground) goes out and up to under the bed. Battery source was connected directly to the motor and tested in both forward and reverse directions by swapping polarity on the wire to the battery. The power from the G9 board is testing 12.18ish (and neg 12.18ish when poles reversed) so I am getting power to the ends. They connect to a couple of quick connects that the motor leads also connect to. I have removed the quick connects by twisting the wires together and still no go. I understand it doesn't matter which wires I hook to which in this instance as it's a reversing motor but on the power side I have a white and a white black. And if memory serves, I hooked the red motor wire to the white. I do not think I tried it the other way so maybe that's my issue.

I will try red to white/black but one of my wishes is to remove the rocker switch from the line and I am not sure how (or if I can) jump the two power wires to the rocker switch and what I do with the ground from that rocker switch. I suppose I could order a new rocker switch.

Trying to isolate and remove variables.

[MrMark52]

If your using a digital voltmeter to make your voltage measurements - they don’t “load” the circuit under test like the old analog voltmeters did. A high resistance somewhere in the wiring (burned connection points, internal corrosion of insulated wires, loose connections, etc.) will show up as full voltage available, with maybe a slight reduction of available voltage (as you indicate you have 10.5vdc at one point).

I’m inclined to say you need to do a thorough inspection of all your wiring and related connections.

You can also build yourself a test light using an old tungsten filament 12 volt light bulb. It will load the circuit under test to a greater extent than a digital meter.

And another alternative is to take any voltage readings at the various points with the meter connected while closing the various switches (that lets you see the connection point with the motor load on it rather than just the meter load on it).

[shootist]

With a separate wire run a new ground from the house batteries to your work area. 12 or 14 gauge is fine. Take voltage readings using your black lead to that ground. If you see more than 1/2 volt or so on any ground post you have a bad ground. If you see any voltage drop on the positive terminals (more than .7) you have a resistance on the + side. Super easy, fool proof. Operate the switch during your testing.

[voltdoc]

Agree. With the actuator wired up, put your volt meter across the connections at the actuator. Try to operate the actuator and watch the voltage. If it drops precipitously, as previously said, you have a high resistance connection somewhere in the wiring.

I don't understand the relationship between the G9 and the manual switch. Can you post a pic of the wiring at the switch? Switches that control a device by reversing polarity are usually DPDT and wired like in the diagram below.

If yours is wired like that, you should be able to figure out how to bypass the switch.

OTOH, if the switch is just sending commands to the G9, and the G9 is actually running the actuator, bypassing the switch will not be of any value. There is possibly a relay in the G9 that may be at fault, or mote likely, one of the connections on the back is loose or has a bad crimp.

[jeff.herren]

Thanks all for the additional information. Yes I have a digital VM. I assumed when I had the meter on the line (either the end power to the motor or the disconnected switch) and I operated the switch, either hard switch or Vegatouch, I was asking for a consistent 12vdc power to be applied. I will work on an external source.

I am not overly adept at using the VM so advise there would be useful. I am wondering if a continuity test would show me anything.

Relating to the pics I have attached a pic of the back of the momentary switch, as you can see it only has three spade connectors. one ground and hot/common pair. I can find very little reference to this switch as most everything I see shows VoltDocs diagram.

I have checked the connection on the G9 board section J8 High output (purple left hand side) pins 11 and 12 and section J1 Inputs (blue right hand side) pins 8 and 9, I am not sure where the ground from the switch goes, I will try running a dedicated ground but that may wait until this trip is over in three weeks.

I will also try and trace the wires back to the basement from up top as both sets are in the slide and may have been chafed free of insulation.

[voltdoc]

Originally Posted by jeff.herren

Thanks all for the additional information. Yes I have a digital VM. I assumed when I had the meter on the line (either the end power to the motor or the disconnected switch) and I operated the switch, either hard switch or Vegatouch, I was asking for a consistent 12vdc power to be applied. I will work on an external source.

I am not overly adept at using the VM so advise there would be useful. I am wondering if a continuity test would show me anything.

Relating to the pics I have attached a pic of the back of the momentary switch, as you can see it only has three spade connectors. one ground and hot/common pair. I can find very little reference to this switch as most everything I see shows VoltDocs diagram.

I have checked the connection on the G9 board section J8 High output (purple left hand side) pins 11 and 12 and section J1 Inputs (blue right hand side) pins 8 and 9, I am not sure where the ground from the switch goes, I will try running a dedicated ground but that may wait until this trip is over in three weeks.

I will also try and trace the wires back to the basement from up top as both sets are in the slide and may have been chafed free of insulation.

If there is a high resistance connection in the wiring, voltage across the actuator will read full and normal with no load (no current is being drawn). As soon as there is a load, depending on current draw, voltage will drop across the resistance and provide lower voltage to the load. If there is an open in the circuit, there will be no voltage at any time. Not clear from your response if you did this test?

RE G9, so what did you find checking those pins on the G9?

RE switch, not a typical voltage reversing setup. I wouldn't assume any of those conductors are ground. Could be +12 (OR Gnd) switched to up and down inputs on the actuator. If you had both ground and +12 at the switch, activating the switch would short +12 to ground and blow a fuse. Perhaps your actuator is a non-typical setup and doesn't work from reverse polarity. How many connections does it have? Do you have any photos of it, like the ID label, etc?

Also, you mentioned you have a schematic you got from Entegra, can you post that?

[MrMark52]

As voltdoc points out in his first paragraph above - any resistance in the wiring or other components will be represented as heat.

The amount of resistance will determine how hot it gets, or how much heat is generated.

Heat generated in a degrading connection continually degrades to get worse and worse, to the point of “opening” - and depending on the type and use of the circuit, said failing connection will carburize and melt any insulation that is a part of the connection.

The carburizing and melting of insulation, as well as a connection that gets warm or hot, is a very good indication of a problem.

Troubleshooting electrical circuits as presented here require understanding and application of Ohm’s Law, combined with the experience of knowing what happens when mechanical connections degrade electrically.

As for the motor reversing switch circuit pictured in post #6 - it can be confusing if how it works is not clearly understood. But it is a simple battery polarity reversing circuit to drive a DC reversible motor.
Placing meter leads on the 2 motor leads, and the switch in the neutral position - the meter should read 0 volts.
One could measure Ohm’s at this time as well - and the meter should then read the motor winding resistance.
Switching the meter back to DC volts - and depressing the switch in one direction - the meter should read battery voltage - and depending on which meter lead is placed on which motor lead, and which direction rather switch was depressed - the reading will either be signed “-“, or not.
Flipping the switch the other direction, the meter should again read the same battery voltage as read before - this time “signed”, or not, depending on the previous reading of if signed or not.

So - an understanding of the circuit to be tested is important, but so is an understanding of what voltmeter readings are supposed to be depending on how the meter is connected to the circuit.
Measuring between points within a circuit are just as important to diagnosing circuit issues as measuring from any point in the circuit to ground.

And then understanding the sensitivity of the test instrument being used.