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Old 11-17-2020, 05:05 AM   #15
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Yep, I wait until the emissions light goes out before starting. With all the def head issues, I am taking not taking any chances. Who knows if prematurely starting the engine contributes is contributing to all theses failures.
Very wise move, I can almost guarantee in my situation is was quick starts that zapped my DEF sensor. It was fine with no CEL lights when I left it at FL spring and axle for alignment and ride height adjustment. On the work order it was test driven twice. I picked the coach up at 4pm, waited for the check engine light to go out, it did not and the warning bar was flashing "emission" flashing to "low DEF concentrate". OS! check the codes, 3031, which is a bad DEF sensor. JME on a 21 that had been quick started only twice that I know of, maybe more with the shop techs.
What is shocking, if I have the latest and greatest generation 6 DEF sensors, they are more sensitive to abuse than the earlier versions. My generation 5 made it 1,900 miles . Hopefully I got the only bad one out of a thousand. But I am proof the damage quick starts can cause. That's what I get for leaving a coach and not staying with it.
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:27 AM   #16
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Very wise move, I can almost guarantee in my situation is was quick starts that zapped my DEF sensor. It was fine with no CEL lights when I left it at FL spring and axle for alignment and ride height adjustment. On the work order it was test driven twice. I picked the coach up at 4pm, waited for the check engine light to go out, it did not and the warning bar was flashing "emission" flashing to "low DEF concentrate". OS! check the codes, 3031, which is a bad DEF sensor. JME on a 21 that had been quick started only twice that I know of, maybe more with the shop techs.
What is shocking, if I have the latest and greatest generation 6 DEF sensors, they are more sensitive to abuse than the earlier versions. My generation 5 made it 1,900 miles . Hopefully I got the only bad one out of a thousand. But I am proof the damage quick starts can cause. That's what I get for leaving a coach and not staying with it.
Who knows how many quick starts were done on my coach before delivery. I was not instructed to wait for CEL lights dot disappear. With no one instructing me, it would suggest that even NIRVC doesn't know that procedure. Until I read your thread a while back, I had quick started mine countless times.

Tired calling Spartan yesterday but the wait on hold times were too long and I had to give up. I am going to twist their arm to get a spare head for my upcoming trip.
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Old 11-17-2020, 06:44 AM   #17
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Who knows how many quick starts were done on my coach before delivery. I was not instructed to wait for CEL lights dot disappear. With no one instructing me, it would suggest that even NIRVC doesn't know that procedure. Until I read your thread a while back, I had quick started mine countless times.

Tired calling Spartan yesterday but the wait on hold times were too long and I had to give up. I am going to twist their arm to get a spare head for my upcoming trip.
It is just my luck that once I own a coach, the first time it is quick started, I am going to have a DEF problem. Mine was probably quick stated many times before I owned the coach, I watch NIRVC do it, but once I write the check, the next time it's going to glitch and it did.

One thing on the 21...they moved the air bag fill manifold from the generator compartment to right above the DEF head. Why there, I have no clue, but it sure makes changing the DEF sensor more difficult. I did not remove the manifold to see how much plumbing is in the way of the DEF sensor removal, but it's worth looking at. I will look when mine goes into Cummis.
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Old 11-17-2020, 09:12 AM   #18
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It is just my luck that once I own a coach, the first time it is quick started, I am going to have a DEF problem. Mine was probably quick stated many times before I owned the coach, I watch NIRVC do it, but once I write the check, the next time it's going to glitch and it did.

One thing on the 21...they moved the air bag fill manifold from the generator compartment to right above the DEF head. Why there, I have no clue, but it sure makes changing the DEF sensor more difficult. I did not remove the manifold to see how much plumbing is in the way of the DEF sensor removal, but it's worth looking at. I will look when mine goes into Cummis.
Am I glad I started this thread. Without all of your voices, I would have continued to quick start my engine for ever. Nobody ever told me at the dealer to not do that, and Spartan di not mentioned it either during my conversation with the tech. Why those that are supposed to be professionals do not know these things? I have now 3000 miles on my coach and it has always been quick started. Let's hope it survived this treatment. Thanks again.
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Old 11-17-2020, 10:22 AM   #19
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It is just my luck that once I own a coach, the first time it is quick started, I am going to have a DEF problem. Mine was probably quick stated many times before I owned the coach, I watch NIRVC do it, but once I write the check, the next time it's going to glitch and it did.

One thing on the 21...they moved the air bag fill manifold from the generator compartment to right above the DEF head. Why there, I have no clue, but it sure makes changing the DEF sensor more difficult. I did not remove the manifold to see how much plumbing is in the way of the DEF sensor removal, but it's worth looking at. I will look when mine goes into Cummis.
They weren’t picking on you Chuck. The manifold for airbag fill is also in the DEF compartment for the 2020s.
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:06 AM   #20
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Chuck,
From the IT world that I live in, the rule of thumb is shutdowns and start ups are the most critical points of failure - especially the start ups. Patience is a virtue, I try to wait at least 10-15 seconds after all the light on the dash disappear before hitting the start button. I always do a 5 min or more cool down before shutdown and then I make sure we are at normal operation before killing it.

I would be interested in knowing if they moved the air tanks as well as the manifold...or just the manifold?

I do think and believe that as all our rigs communicate and talk more, 2 things are paramount that have been over looked 1. Good ground connection points and keeping them clean and tight, 2. the location and watertight comm plugs that are used are not always tight and sealed and placed in protected areas.

JP
P.S. - Yes Chuck they have singled you and your coach out to be the test coach for the rest of us and we apricate your willingness to help. I have learned more from you and Gary's threads in the past months than any book or school!!!
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:19 AM   #21
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They weren’t picking on you Chuck. The manifold for airbag fill is also in the DEF compartment for the 2020s.
Thanks for that update that the 20's suffered the manifold move as well. Do you have any idea why they might have done that? It was fine on the firewall out of the way. NIRVC did tell me there have a lot of leaking problems, maybe it was for ease of maintenance. With the DEF sensor problems, it might not have been the best place to relocate it.
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:43 AM   #22
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Thank you for the kind words John. A few have mentioned it was never explained to them not to quick start, Spartan said it was okay, dealers, techs etc. However the Cummins manual is where I learned about the 16 DEF sensors syncing and to let all of the lights go out before starting. When I asked Cummins about the emission warning light, they told me the sensors were still "talking to each other". I think the engine manufacture, that has to change the DEF sensors, is the final word on quick starts. JMO.

The 14 threw error codes all the time for no reason until the ECM was updated. But mine would always throw a 1081 code if quick started. The 1081 code was a nothing code, just the aggravation CEL until it finally went out, maybe 100 or maybe a 1,000 miles. The 14 key ignition was easy to forget, jump in and turn the key not thinking. I learned on that MH the lesson of quick starts real quick.
I hope others are learning what can happen with quick starts with us discussing the subject. I know there are those that say, "I do it all the time and nothing happens". I've owned 2 Entegras that if quick started, something always happens.
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:57 PM   #23
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That is just what I did, the Cummins tech cleared the code and told me to always wait until the lights are off before starting which is what caused the problem. I dropped off my coach at the dealer to complete the punch list and told them what the Cummins tech told me about proper startup. They had no clue. Thanks Chuck.
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Old 11-17-2020, 06:26 PM   #24
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They weren’t picking on you Chuck. The manifold for airbag fill is also in the DEF compartment for the 2020s.
Stop misleading Chuck.He is Spartan's test mule!
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Old 11-17-2020, 06:34 PM   #25
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stop misleading chuck.he is spartan's test mule!
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Old 11-17-2020, 07:03 PM   #26
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That is just what I did, the Cummins tech cleared the code and told me to always wait until the lights are off before starting which is what caused the problem. I dropped off my coach at the dealer to complete the punch list and told them what the Cummins tech told me about proper startup. They had no clue. Thanks Chuck.
Thanks for sharing...sooner or later quick starts will cause a glitch in the emission system.
Thinking about Buddy110 delivery of his 21 at NIRVC. The DEF sensor went out before he picked up the coach. Knowing what I learned on mine, I'll bet his was quick started at the dealer's as well.
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