Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > THE OWNER'S CORNER FORUMS > Entegra Owner's Forum
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-03-2022, 06:09 AM   #43
Senior Member
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,452
I'd be looking for a relay that activates a path to ground for the brake lights when engine brake is activated.
__________________
TandW
TandW is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-03-2022, 07:27 AM   #44
Senior Member
 
palehorse89's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,267
Found this for a hi/low 2 position switch.........
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Engine brake rewire for no brake lights.pdf (109.9 KB, 12 views)
__________________
2012 Essex 4544 2011 Jeep JK, M&G Braking, 2014 MTI 27' Hog Hauler, Wireless brake control, 2006 Ultra & 1989 Springer
palehorse89 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 07:41 AM   #45
Member
 
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse89 View Post
Found this for a hi/low 2 position switch.........
Thanks for this Palehorse89, I will be studying...
__________________
2014 Entegra Anthem 42DLQ
24 ft Legend Enclosed Auto Trailer
NowGo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 07:44 AM   #46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
See this Psot about mod...........

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f112/sto...ts-586047.html


OK it appears that brake lights activate a trailer/toad so I can see where using Engine Brake and not having trailer/toad brakes activated would be reasonable on long downgrades.

that could have easily been the answer as to WHY..........
Just for clarification the toad brakes should not be a problem. Toad brake systems that I know of only apply the brakes if the service brakes are applied or work like surge brakes. Trailers with electric brakes receive their signal from a brake controller installed in the coach. This brake controller is activated by the brake light signal and inertia. So if the brake lights for the coach are on the controller sends power to the trailer’s electric brakes. To make matters worse, if the controller senses that the inertia is not slowing down, as in the engine brake maintaining speed on a long downgrade, the controller can ramp up the voltage going to the trailer’s electric brakes. I did not want to mess with any of the coach wiring by installing switches or relays and I did not have my trailer yet so I ordered a trailer with surge brakes. Also for more clarification. The trailer brake lights will still be on whenever the coach brake lights are on because that signal comes through the 7 way plug.
T_Roy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 07:48 AM   #47
Member
 
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit View Post
See this Psot about mod...........

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f112/sto...ts-586047.html


OK it appears that brake lights activate a trailer/toad so I can see where using Engine Brake and not having trailer/toad brakes activated would be reasonable on long downgrades.

that could have easily been the answer as to WHY..........
Thanks for the link Old Biscuit. This thread definitely evolved into a debate , and any technical information is much appreciated. As a result of the evolution to debate, at some point I will prepare a bit of a dissertation as to my logic behind this mod, then all can take it or leave it as they desire. Meanwhile I am watching for the valuable technical input I am seeing.
Thanks again Old Biscuit
__________________
2014 Entegra Anthem 42DLQ
24 ft Legend Enclosed Auto Trailer
NowGo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 09:53 AM   #48
Member
 
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by NowGo View Post
Thanks for the link Old Biscuit. This thread definitely evolved into a debate , and any technical information is much appreciated. As a result of the evolution to debate, at some point I will prepare a bit of a dissertation as to my logic behind this mod, then all can take it or leave it as they desire. Meanwhile I am watching for the valuable technical input I am seeing.
Thanks again Old Biscuit
First off, I respect everyone’s opinions and their right to choose their own methods. For what it is worth, this is the logic and history behind my desire for this mod. Everyone can make their own choices.
Second, sorry for the long post.
I base my logic on my trucking experience. I have held the Canadian equivalent of a CDL (Class 1 in Canada) since 1978. I haven’t trucked for years, but when I did I hauled oversize/overweight loads up to more than double the non-permitted legal weight. This included mountainous travel in the Rocky Mountains as well as trips up the old Alaska highway, with steep grades far beyond what we see on public highways today. I have many stories. I have experience with Detroit, CAT, Mack, and Cummins engines, including experience with both exhaust brakes and engine brakes. Enough of that.
Engine brakes on trucks NEVER activated the stop/brake lights.
Using the engine brake on level ground (such as but not limited to city travel) comes with the responsibility to provide drivers behind me with an indication that this is occurring. When bobtailing with a truck (when the engine brake is capable of the most significant reduction in speed), I would tap or apply my service brakes gently or ride ever so gently to activate the stop/brake lights. This is what I plan to do where the stop/brake lights are not activated by the engine brake. I also turn on my signal lights to indicate a lane change, the truck or coach doesn’t do that for me either.
I am not pursuing this mod due to the fact that I use the engine brake all the time, although I do use it almost always, just as many other truckers/ex truckers do. If I use it city traffic it is on low setting, using my foot on the throttle to stop it from engaging so I can coast, just as I did with a semi. As to the indications to the drivers behind me, the low setting does not provide a dramatic reduction in speed. However, again I do acknowledge that drivers behind me need to be advised of speed reduction, and I have the service brake pedal for that.
I am particularly focused on the use of the engine brake to control speed on descent of long grades. There are runaway lanes on long grades for a reason, and I have no intention of using one. My coach has a GCWR of 64,000 lbs, and while that is not up to loads the semis are hauling, it is definitely enough to garner respect.
When rounding a curve at travelling at highway speeds to see traffic stopped or travelling at very slow speeds I activate the hazards, at least temporarily. I always did this when trucking and I do this whether I am in my coach or my four wheeler. This notifies the drivers behind me that something is going on up ahead, “pay attention”. I note that drivers behind me often take the cue and do the same. I am aware of various laws that state hazards cannot be used when moving. I prefer to avoid an accident.
When descending steep grades IMO experienced truckers will reduce the speed of their trucks to a speed which they believe will allow the engine brake to control the speed, or at least very close to it, with very few service brake applications, only as required. They will accomplish this initial speed reduction with the engine brake. The target speed can be dramatically less than the rest of traffic. Speeds of 30-40 miles per hour are not uncommon when using the engine brake to control the speed of a heavy unit on a descent.
This is where hazard lights come in. The trucks will activate the hazard lights to warn driver approaching from behind. (They also do this as they pick up speed when entering a highway with no acceleration lane.)
I am thinking others on this post may have been travelling through the mountains in the granny lane with their four wheeler only to break the crest of a hill and see a truck descending at a very low speed with the hazards on. Hazard lights gave you the heads up, then a quick lane check is required to see if the hammer lane is clear, then a quick lane change to avoid running into the semi that is descending the hill.
My coach has 6 stop/brake/tail lights. When using the hazards the top two flash. When I apply the service brakes the top two stop flashing and all 6 come on (no flashing). That’s ok as it provides drivers behind me with an indication that I have applied the service brakes. BUT, what happens if the engine brake applies all 6 in a steady on state? As I travel down the grade at a significantly reduced speed the drivers behind me see only the activated brake lights. I prefer to give them a better “heads up”.
Next, if during that descent I am required to provide emergency braking to slow the coach quickly (such as when Bambi jumps out in front of me), that notification to drivers behind me is not provided. The stop/brake lights were on before the rapid reduction in speed from the emergency braking, and they stay on with no change. What about the notification to the drivers behind me?
Most importantly, by using the engine brake method I have described I have cool brakes with full capacity when Bambi comes along.
The primary reason for minimizing service brake use on grades is to stop them from overheating. Hot brakes are reduced in their effectiveness. If not managed, the heat can result in the total loss of braking power.
Remember the runaway lanes? Over those decades I referred to earlier I have made mistakes, smoked brakes, and scared myself sufficiently to learn my lesson.
Minimizing the use of service brakes increases their lifespan. Owner/operators are acutely aware of this. Brakes are not cheap. Service brakes will always be used, at low speeds and at redlights, and periodically as required. I have never seen brakes becoming glazed from lack of use due to using engine brakes extensively, but I have seen them become glazed due to overheating. (I have experienced them becoming packed with snow, requiring periodic deliberate application to clear the snow).
Now let’s look at towing a trailer with electric brakes. I have a Tekonsha proportional brake controller. My brake controller is activated by the stop/tail lights. Braking power applied to the trailer brakes is then determined by inertia. However, initial application of the stop/brake lights does provide initial power to the trailer brakes. The way my coach is currently set up this occurs when the service brakes are applied OR the engine brake is activated. When monitoring the brake controller (visual indication of amperage) I can tell you that the brakes are activated a lot, with minimal change in inertia. I want ALL my brakes cool for the time I really need them. My trailer brake controller is set correctly. Reducing the setting on the brake controller to zero while descending grades eliminates the availability of the trailer brakes for emergency braking. I do not want to have to manually engage my trailer brakes in that situation.
As to safety (forgive me as I digress), thanks to the many posters on this forum (GasMan, Gary Jones, and others) I have been able to install side signal lights midway up the side, on the front side, and have my mirror markers function as signals. My point is… I believe building a coach that is 43-45 feet long with absolutely NO side signal lights is far, far more of a safety issue than building coaches and deeming it is necessary to have the engine brake activate the stop/brake lights.
As it currently stands, my engine brake activates my trailer brakes and defeats my hazards. I do like the idea of having a switch so I can choose how the engine brake affects stop/brake lights. Until that can be accomplished, IMO the engine brake has no business activating stop/brake lights.
I quote BonS in post https://www.irv2.com/forums/f112/sto...ts-586047.html page 5 = I want the choice so I can implement my driving/braking strategy based upon the circumstances on hand.
I am thankful we can all choose to make our own decisions and my intent is not to fuel debate, but I did feel some of what I had to say might be helpful.
__________________
2014 Entegra Anthem 42DLQ
24 ft Legend Enclosed Auto Trailer
NowGo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 10:10 AM   #49
Senior Member
 
dbircky's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Solo Rvers Club
Coastal Campers
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,161
As I understand it:
1) Surge brakes work as the force applied on the hitch from the weight of the trailer pushing on the towing vehicle.
2) Electric brakes work by the deceleration of the towing vehicle using a variable voltage controlled by a pendulum or other device mounted in the towing vehicle.
3) Air brakes work on the application of the brake pedal.

I think I listed those in the order of the amount of drag.

If the concern is trailer brakes coming on when descending hills, one would think that both the electric and surge brakes would be applied to some degree because of the force being applied to the towing vehicle. Only the air brake would stay completely off when using a compression brake on the towing vehicle.

On my MH, when descending a hill with the exhaust brake on, only the left and right brake lights come on. The center brake light and the taillights on the trailer or the flat towed Jeep do not illuminate until I step on the brake pedal. The Jeep is on an air line, and the trailer has electric brakes. The controller mounted under the dash doesn’t show any lights until I step on the brake. I suspect the trailer brakes are not on at all when just the exhaust brake is switched on. Without digging into the wiring, I’m thinking there are separate circuits to activate the MH brake lights, one from the exhaust brake, and the other from the brake pedal. Only the second can operate the electric trailer brakes.
__________________
2009 Monaco Camelot 42PDQ
2011 JK
dbircky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 10:11 AM   #50
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY State
Posts: 1,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Roy View Post
Just for clarification the toad brakes should not be a problem. Toad brake systems that I know of only apply the brakes if the service brakes are applied or work like surge brakes. Trailers with electric brakes receive their signal from a brake controller installed in the coach. This brake controller is activated by the brake light signal and inertia. So if the brake lights for the coach are on the controller sends power to the trailer’s electric brakes. To make matters worse, if the controller senses that the inertia is not slowing down, as in the engine brake maintaining speed on a long downgrade, the controller can ramp up the voltage going to the trailer’s electric brakes. I did not want to mess with any of the coach wiring by installing switches or relays and I did not have my trailer yet so I ordered a trailer with surge brakes. Also for more clarification. The trailer brake lights will still be on whenever the coach brake lights are on because that signal comes through the 7 way plug.
Well, some toad braking systems such as our Brake Buddy is intertia-based, and decide to brake on their own whether the coach's brake lights are on or off. But that's irrelevant for the OP.

The problem the OP is trying to fix is this. When he's managing speed with the engine brake, he does not want the trailer brakes engaged. When he steps on the service brake, he does want the trailer brakes engaged. Since his brake controller takes its signal from the brake light circuit, and the ECM is programmed to turn on the brake lights when the engine brake is slowing the coach, and that programming cannot be changed, he cannot do what he (very reasonably) wants to do.

I wish I had a solution for him, but I don't. In this and another thread there have been a couple of good suggestions.
__________________
John
1976 Southwind 28', '96 Winnie 34WK,
2006 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40QDP
n2zon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 10:22 AM   #51
Senior Member
 
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by n2zon View Post
Well, some toad braking systems such as our Brake Buddy is intertia-based, and decide to brake on their own whether the coach's brake lights are on or off. But that's irrelevant for the OP.

The problem the OP is trying to fix is this. When he's managing speed with the engine brake, he does not want the trailer brakes engaged. When he steps on the service brake, he does want the trailer brakes engaged. Since his brake controller takes its signal from the brake light circuit, and the ECM is programmed to turn on the brake lights when the engine brake is slowing the coach, and that programming cannot be changed, he cannot do what he (very reasonably) wants to do.

I wish I had a solution for him, but I don't. In this and another thread there have been a couple of good suggestions.
Also, he is concerned with the coach brake lights being full on during an extended descent. Refer to the Bambi clause.
Still think he needs to find out what takes the brake-light circuit to ground during engine braking.
__________________
TandW
TandW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 12:56 PM   #52
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbircky View Post
As I understand it:
1) Surge brakes work as the force applied on the hitch from the weight of the trailer pushing on the towing vehicle.
2) Electric brakes work by the deceleration of the towing vehicle using a variable voltage controlled by a pendulum or other device mounted in the towing vehicle.
3) Air brakes work on the application of the brake pedal.

I think I listed those in the order of the amount of drag.

If the concern is trailer brakes coming on when descending hills, one would think that both the electric and surge brakes would be applied to some degree because of the force being applied to the towing vehicle. Only the air brake would stay completely off when using a compression brake on the towing vehicle.

On my MH, when descending a hill with the exhaust brake on, only the left and right brake lights come on. The center brake light and the taillights on the trailer or the flat towed Jeep do not illuminate until I step on the brake pedal. The Jeep is on an air line, and the trailer has electric brakes. The controller mounted under the dash doesn’t show any lights until I step on the brake. I suspect the trailer brakes are not on at all when just the exhaust brake is switched on. Without digging into the wiring, I’m thinking there are separate circuits to activate the MH brake lights, one from the exhaust brake, and the other from the brake pedal. Only the second can operate the electric trailer brakes.
Which Motorhome and year model do you have?
T_Roy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 05:33 PM   #53
Senior Member
 
darjacob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 228
I hadn't considered this issue and I've decided to trailer my CanAm and my BMW. If I remember correctly, the brake controller is activated by a wire that connects to the brake pedal switch. Why can't you put a switch between the brake pedal switch and the controller? I'd use a momentary switch to cut if off as necessary. The trailer brake lights will still come on with the Jake but not the brakes. Is that a reasonable solution?
__________________
Fleetwood Terra, Airstream Land Yacht, Tiffen Pheaton, American Eagle, Gulf Stream Friendship, Beaver patriot Thunder, Forest River Charleston, "In-country" 1971-72
2015 Entegra Anthem 42RBQ
darjacob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2022, 05:51 PM   #54
Senior Member
 
palehorse89's Avatar
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by darjacob View Post
I hadn't considered this issue and I've decided to trailer my CanAm and my BMW. If I remember correctly, the brake controller is activated by a wire that connects to the brake pedal switch. Why can't you put a switch between the brake pedal switch and the controller? I'd use a momentary switch to cut if off as necessary. The trailer brake lights will still come on with the Jake but not the brakes. Is that a reasonable solution?
No, not really, just turning the controller down to zero will do the same thing, we are trying to make the stop lamps stay off when using the engine brake, thus no power being applied to the trailer brakes.
__________________
2012 Essex 4544 2011 Jeep JK, M&G Braking, 2014 MTI 27' Hog Hauler, Wireless brake control, 2006 Ultra & 1989 Springer
palehorse89 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2022, 03:01 PM   #55
Senior Member
 
roblaura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Tampa FL & NE Georgia
Posts: 240
I understand you only want technical answers, but like others I wonder why eliminating the brake light when not also using the foot brake is important. My exhaust brake slows the vehicle. My foot brake slows the vehicle. In my mind, brake light illumination means the vehicle is slowing. How it is being done is not important to other drivers.
roblaura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2022, 03:07 PM   #56
Senior Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Box Elder, SD
Posts: 902
Quote:
Originally Posted by roblaura View Post
I understand you only want technical answers, but like others I wonder why eliminating the brake light when not also using the foot brake is important. My exhaust brake slows the vehicle. My foot brake slows the vehicle. In my mind, brake light illumination means the vehicle is slowing. How it is being done is not important to other drivers.
Because rolling down a hill with the engine brake on doesn't necessarily slow down the vehicle -It only keeps it from speeding up more. Car cruise controls do the same thing and they don't flash on the brake lights while doing it.
__________________
2009 Country Coach Veranda 400, ISM 500, Aqua Hot 525D
2019 Lincoln Nautilus 2.7L Toad
2020 Lectric XP E-bike (Hybrid)
BonS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brake, brake lights, engine, light, lights



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
stop, Stop, STOP! 5er2life Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion 14 05-16-2022 05:00 AM
Stop Engine / Check Engine Lights tpaullewis Caterpillar Engine Forum 10 11-05-2020 06:13 PM
Check Engine/Stop Engine Lights tnrvers Cummins Engines 12 10-03-2018 06:31 AM
Check Engine, Stop Engine lights on 2009 Vectra jimjr Cummins Engines 9 08-12-2010 10:39 AM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.