Engine brake - NO stop/brake lights please

[TandW]

Still think the OP needs to look for the relay that takes the brake lights to ground when engine braking is activated. That relay, if he finds it, will likely be fused.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by Gary.Jones

I think that you will find that the ECM can be programmed, but that Spartan will refuse to do it for you as it is a safety issue and it would make them legally liable for problems.

And the reasons should be obvious. The engine brake should not be on for routine braking all the time. That is what service brakes are designed to do. Engine brakes should be on when you are actually using them for braking and if you are braking, (slowing) then your coach brake lights should be illuminated. Simple concept

Gary

[HarleySG]

Can you not simply disconnect the brake light. Cut the wire so it never works?

[Dmars]

Thanks for the tip on the parameter setting at Cummins. I will check it out. Safety concern on my coach is laughable when the exhaust brake comes on. I go down Cow Canyon grade here for 5 miles probably and unless I shift down at the top I will gain speed all the way to the bottom. My brake lights will be on the whole way while I am speeding up all the way down. If I do hit the brakes nobody behind me would know since the lights have been solidly illuminated the whole time. The people behind me will be laughing like I don't know how to drive since they think I am riding the brakes. I have no idea how having those lights not come on with the exhaust brake is a safety concern. Its like driving 60 in a 55 MPH zone is a safety concern too but we all do it.

[GeezerViz]

Funny what people care about. I could care less if people behind me think I'm riding my brakes when going down a steep hill. I bet I'm also going under the speed limit, so they can pass me if they want. I think my toad brakes only come on when I hit the service brake but not sure and don't care.

[Gasman 2]

Originally Posted by GeezerViz

Funny what people care about. I could care less if people behind me think I'm riding my brakes when going down a steep hill. I bet I'm also going under the speed limit, so they can pass me if they want. I think my toad brakes only come on when I hit the service brake but not sure and don't care.

If they rear end you will care, sorry I put this in the safety category. But I know some don’t see it that way.
I would bet you toad brake lights are on if your coach brake lights are on, after all the signal comes from the coach.
The way our coaches are wired they use combination turn signal/ brake light circuit, so unless your coach has a separate brake light circuit like commercial vehicles you toad lights will mirror the coaches.

Richard

[Gasman 2]

NowGo,
Your first post stated it was your first post, so welcome to the forum especially from our Canada friends. I sure Alberta has it’s challenges as far as steep grades.

Away you said you have reviewed the schematics, I assume Spartan’s, I’m looking at the one titled trailer brakes where it shows electronic trailer brake controller/ customer supplied electronic brake controller.
Calling attention to wire SP108b this is the one from the stop light switch to the controller.
Question do know if this is activated by the engine brake and the brake pedal pressure switch both, or just the pressure switch?

Second question does the controller need power apply to SP 108b to apply the trailer brakes?

I have done a work around as far as the engine brake activating the brake lights.
I took the commercial vehicle approach and separate the brake light function from the turn signal function since there are three pair of lights at the rear that made it doable. If you were to take this approach you would need to add left and right brake lights to your trailer. But I can’t recommended it.
Hope to hear from you.

Richard

[NowGo]

Originally Posted by Gasman 2

NowGo,
Your first post stated it was your first post, so welcome to the forum especially from our Canada friends. I sure Alberta has it’s challenges as far as steep grades.

Away you said you have reviewed the schematics, I assume Spartan’s, I’m looking at the one titled trailer brakes where it shows electronic trailer brake controller/ customer supplied electronic brake controller.
Calling attention to wire SP108b this is the one from the stop light switch to the controller.
Question do know if this is activated by the engine brake and the brake pedal pressure switch both, or just the pressure switch?

Second question does the controller need power apply to SP 108b to apply the trailer brakes?

I have done a work around as far as the engine brake activating the brake lights.
I took the commercial vehicle approach and separate the brake light function from the turn signal function since there are three pair of lights at the rear that made it doable. If you were to take this approach you would need to add left and right brake lights to your trailer. But I can’t recommended it.
Hope to hear from you.

Richard

Gasman 2,

I will reply later tonight or tomorrow. I am stopped on the highway with my 4 wheeler, in lineup in the Rockies in B.C., behind a serious wreck so using my phone to reply. Just wanted you to know I am watching 2 threads on this issue

[BillJinOR]

Originally Posted by Gasman 2

If they rear end you will care, sorry I put this in the safety category. But I know some don’t see it that way.
I would bet you toad brake lights are on if your coach brake lights are on, after all the signal comes from the coach.
The way our coaches are wired they use combination turn signal/ brake light circuit, so unless your coach has a separate brake light circuit like commercial vehicles you toad lights will mirror the coaches.

Richard

I had mine disconnected on my 2003 Beaver. The only time I used the Jake was on downhill runs . same with my OTR Tractor in my other professional life. I didn't find it fun to leave it on for normal braking nor is it good for the Brakes which need some heavy braking now and then to not Glaze. Jakes weren't meant for stoplight use IMO.
Going down a mountain pass with the Jake on , I wasn't slowing far from it. I was being held back and in fact gaining slowly, pushing the brake pedal (Stab braking ,when I was actually slowing) activated the lights and my electric trailer brakes. Having the brake lights on all the way down a 6 mile mountain pass when I wasn't slowing with the Jake on and the lights activating my trailer brakes would have burned them up! Assuming the trailer brakes were adjusted properly. that's the logic for not having the Jake activate lights. I dont see that as a "safety issue" For people who seem to love to leave the Jake on all the time ....that doesn't apply.

[Paul8020]

Originally Posted by Gasman 2

....
I would bet you toad brake lights are on if your coach brake lights are on, after all the signal comes from the coach.
The way our coaches are wired they use combination turn signal/ brake light circuit, so unless your coach has a separate brake light circuit like commercial vehicles you toad lights will mirror the coaches.

Richard

My toad brake light are activated by the toad brakes being applied by my service brake. Therefore, it make no difference if the coach brake light are activated by the exhaust brake, my toad doesn't light up until I activate my service brakes.

[Gasman 2]

Originally Posted by Paul8020

My toad brake light are activated by the toad brakes being applied by my service brake. Therefore, it make no difference if the coach brake light are activated by the exhaust brake, my toad doesn't light up until I activate my service brakes.

So are your turn signals on a different lamp? If not the brake signal will over ride the turn signal thus no turn signal with brakes applied.

[Balladeer]

Have been following this thread.
The thought occurred to me...It would be more informative to the drivers behind you if when the engine brake is activated, a single yellow (amber) light would begin flashing.
If all vehicles using engine brakes had this it would be well known and accepted.
Seems like a simple solution accept you would have to refit about a zillion buses, trucks, rv's with the new system.


This way the brakes would still operate only when applying the brakes and further alert drivers behind that you are making an actual stop.

On my 2016 anthem the "Auxillary Brake" notification lights up on the dash when the engine brake is activated to it would not be hard to wire the Amber light to this circuit.

Just a thought....regards, The Balladeer

[NowGo]

Originally Posted by Gasman 2

NowGo,
Your first post stated it was your first post, so welcome to the forum especially from our Canada friends. I sure Alberta has it’s challenges as far as steep grades.

Away you said you have reviewed the schematics, I assume Spartan’s, I’m looking at the one titled trailer brakes where it shows electronic trailer brake controller/ customer supplied electronic brake controller.
Calling attention to wire SP108b this is the one from the stop light switch to the controller.
Question do know if this is activated by the engine brake and the brake pedal pressure switch both, or just the pressure switch?

Second question does the controller need power apply to SP 108b to apply the trailer brakes?

I have done a work around as far as the engine brake activating the brake lights.
I took the commercial vehicle approach and separate the brake light function from the turn signal function since there are three pair of lights at the rear that made it doable. If you were to take this approach you would need to add left and right brake lights to your trailer. But I can’t recommended it.
Hope to hear from you.

Richard

GasMan 2,

Thanks for your kind words.

Good job on your mod.

I first started reviewing the Spartan schematic package that I actually downloaded from a previous post on this forum, filename = 0295-GG7 2009-10 ENTEGRA COACH K2 ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS GUIDE. In my opinion it did not provide much help in addressing the problem we are working on.
Then I reviewed and uploaded the schematic filename = Trailer Brake.

1081B is energized from the SCM and is triggered by either the service brakes or the engine brake.

The trailer brake controller is triggered by the signal from 1081B. In principle if the trailer brake controller is a proportional controller, upon receiving signal from 1081B it applies voltage to SP709B based upon inertia.

The more the coach is slowing, the more trailer brake is applied. However, the controller does apply some voltage to SP709B as soon as the brake lights are activated and signal is sent down 1081B to the controller.

Also, IMO even with the correct setting of the controller I believe it applies some degree of braking when going down the grade, even though there is no slowing (inertia), just “holdback”. Not good.

We are working on this issue in this post as well: https://www.irv2.com/forums/f112/sto...-586047-3.html.

BonS has placed some very valuable information in post # 32. I am also going to be reaching out to palehorse89 as he is working on this too.

It appears to me that the design BonS has come up with will deal with not only the engine brake activating the brake lights, BUT will also allow the driver to switch back to the original OEM design if the driver chooses to do so.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by Dmars

Thanks for the tip on the parameter setting at Cummins. I will check it out. Safety concern on my coach is laughable when the exhaust brake comes on. I go down Cow Canyon grade here for 5 miles probably and unless I shift down at the top I will gain speed all the way to the bottom. My brake lights will be on the whole way while I am speeding up all the way down. If I do hit the brakes nobody behind me would know since the lights have been solidly illuminated the whole time. The people behind me will be laughing like I don't know how to drive since they think I am riding the brakes. I have no idea how having those lights not come on with the exhaust brake is a safety concern. Its like driving 60 in a 55 MPH zone is a safety concern too but we all do it.

Exhaust brakes work best when engine RPM is at 2,000 RPM's or better. When RPM's are lower than that it's time to manually downshift if speed is increasing.


There is a caveat to exhaust braking; when speed is too high to downshift you only have the service brakes to control the vehicle until you do have speed under control again. Then the exhaust brake resumes retarding speed.