EPA changes DEF issues with impact on all of us.

[AndyZ]

Originally Posted by Gary.Jones

In todays RVTravel newslettter is an article by Russ DeMaris which discusses current issues and changes with the DEF head failure fiasco. This is MUST READING for anyone with a DEF head in their coach. The issue is May 18, 2022

Apparently the EPA was blindsided by the DEF head fiasco and the safety issues that it produces and has announced that they are changing how DEF problems need to be handled. This is VERY interesting reading. The main points that I got out of a quick read is that the de-rate down to 5 mph was never mandated by the EPA but was something that the engine manufacturers decided upon themselves. The derating process of power and speed was mandated by EPA but the dropping to 5 mph was an invention of someone else. The new rules mandate a maximum speed of ~ 50 mph if there is a problem. The new rules don't go into force until 2027.

However, the problem is with legacy engines and systems (e.g., all of our coaches)! EPA proposes that it is permissible to modify our systems to comply with the 50 mph de-rate business on legacy engines IF the system "sees" that there is DEF coming into the engine even if there are other problems that would cause a de-rate and if DEF is still being consumed, then it does not de-rate. The fact that the DEF is still getting where it needs to go would be determined from the exhaust sensors. They even apparently say that if that is true, then the owner can somehow trigger a re-set of the "fault" and bypass the de-rate entirely.

This is from a quick read of the article, but it is something that everyone of us needs to read and get a complete understanding of the problem and the resolution. This appears to remove the DEF HEAD problem from engines manufactured after 2027, but the implementation of the changes for all of us who have a problem with this issue is yet to be specified. My read is that the EPA dumps this issue right in the lap of Cummins, and my understanding is that they are dumping the whole problem into the laps of all the engine manufacturers. How it affects all of us is yet to be articulated by the manufacturers.

If people can't get access to this article, I will copy and paste it up here on the forum. This is the most important article about this subject I have read.

Gary

More reasons to keep my 2005 diesel bounder with it's C-7 Caterpillar

[Camper Ken]

Does this apply to Mercedes Sprinters with the 6 cylinder turbo diesel? I don't even know what a DEF head is. Thanks.

[FPengineer]

How many times have you seen an environmental mandate, rule, law, or requirement provide a cost/benefit? I never have. Every real engineering discipline must provide such to justify the proposals or design merit. Instead of defunding the police, we should look at the EPA and the politicians living off the environments PAC funding. You would really be shocked if you knew how much of your tax dollars go to environmental projects where no clear science backs up the spending.

[VentanaOdyssey]

Typical government, "let's wait 5 years to fix the mess we made".

[brobox]

Originally Posted by ChadBounder

Typical government, "let's wait 5 years to fix the mess we made".

Reading between the lines, we now have permission to use the DEF simulators that many built until the Govt makes their move to make the correction. Now if we could correct the fuel problems as easy.

[VMOMMO]

Environmental rules are subject to cost benefit analysis.
Example for heavy duty diesel emissions is in the link below.

If you live somewhere without effective emission controls on vehicles and trucks you would be shocked to see what the air is like. I just moved back to the USA and do not miss the days when the "Airpocolypse" rolls in and the pollution is so bad you have to stay inside with your air purifiers.

This isn't the fault of the EPA that Cummins and Spartan made DEF heads that don't work and apparently it isn't the fault of the EPA that the speed restriction is 5mph either.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/...yEntry=1&slide

[bgkoontz1]

Deleted until the government can get their collective crap together

[move on]

I question the usefulness of the EPA in setting automotive emissions standards. Vehicle exhausts have cleaned up by themselves over the years. This has come about because of progressive advances in automotive technology, in particular, high pressure computer controlled direct fuel injection that has greatly improved the combustion process. If you have complete atomization of fuel in the cylinder there will be no particulate matter (soot) and there will be no hot spots that will create NOx emissions. All new engines now have this technology and once all the older vehicles are off the road the air will clean up by itself. EPA not required.

[Gary More]

RVing for the second year but I don’t have these problem flying planes. I own two and a Newmar London Aire. Planes annual cost is more but no problems. RV manufacturers need to somehow get all these RV problems worked out as in planes. Make a good unit and keep making it the same with problems that are solved before a break down. Before long most would be buying that model with color difference’s. Just give me reliability in a nice unit. Quit making new every few years with problems in them all. We don’t need fancy, I’ll take reliable.
The Checker Cab was a great Taxi car and they had a good run. (never rode in one because they were not in the south). Let’s face it we are going to get 7-9 mpg at 50,000 lbs no matter how you look at it.
Just my opinion!

[sacrcflyer]

My 2007 American Heritage just keeps looking better as I keep reading this. I have had some small issues over the years but thank God 1 year before the def.

[Cutlass1970]

Looking at building a DEF bypass unit.Does anybody know we’re to get the Canbed Board.I have looked around the inter web and cannot find any.2nd thought is anyone willing to build me one of these units and I will pay you for it.Thanks

[RJ2]

Originally Posted by Camper Ken

Does this apply to Mercedes Sprinters with the 6 cylinder turbo diesel? I don't even know what a DEF head is. Thanks.

We gave up. Sold it. 2016 24j, 49k miles, ruined vacation trip and stranded 3 times. Trying to get off I-75 driving 4 miles, it defaulted to switching from 5 th gear to first gear every second. Felt like and I told service dept that engine was going on and off. The Off ramp came up and discovered it had also defaulted to no BRAKES.
Mercedes just finishing a class action for falsifying epa specs on the sprinters, involved the DEF sensors going bad . 4 of them
$1700, replaced at 48k, the next 3 are 3600,4500,$6200, that’s when we said enough on the DEF diesel
Disaster. Not one of the manufactures can figure out a fix
For the DEF head problems.
Do a Google search, PREVOST DEF PROBLEM,
Owner Purchased a new 1.5 mil unit, out the door 500 miles limp mode , 3 month fix with same part that went bad. Next post was another brand new prevost buyer , Responded the we were in luck our new unit went to 1200 miles. Others chimed in ,ETC, and so on.
It is a shame , spent 50 years driving diesels, now guaranteed to leave you stranded at some point.
No manufacture will dispute that claim. My favorite was Cummins ,
Now it sounds like they are using a
DEF regen Head that is guaranteed to break down.
In a quandary about my camping woes, BLUEBIRD ENGINEERS made my decision for me .
They are replacing all the diesel SCHOOL BUSES with the non diesel , 7.3 ford gas motor “Godzilla”
Picked up a new f250, great motor , no more stepping into diesel puddles, I don’t get in a vehicle and not expect to get where I’m going.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by sacrcflyer

My 2007 American Heritage just keeps looking better as I keep reading this. I have had some small issues over the years but thank God 1 year before the def.

That is great for older MH owners. However they are still paying. Truckers are having the same issues. Every time they are down and have to pay for repairs it is passed on to the consumers of what they are hauling. Anything purchased that has been on a truck, older MH owners get to share in that cost.

[RonAz]

I bet Space X could build a def head that works. They are going where no engineering has gone before. They even made ventilators early on in the "pandemic" out of Space X and Tesla parts. Not too sure that putting the people in charge of finding a better solution that are the ones making money off the problem is the best approach.