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Old 05-15-2022, 06:53 AM   #1
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EPA changes DEF issues with impact on all of us.

In todays RVTravel newslettter is an article by Russ DeMaris which discusses current issues and changes with the DEF head failure fiasco. This is MUST READING for anyone with a DEF head in their coach. The issue is May 18, 2022

Apparently the EPA was blindsided by the DEF head fiasco and the safety issues that it produces and has announced that they are changing how DEF problems need to be handled. This is VERY interesting reading. The main points that I got out of a quick read is that the de-rate down to 5 mph was never mandated by the EPA but was something that the engine manufacturers decided upon themselves. The derating process of power and speed was mandated by EPA but the dropping to 5 mph was an invention of someone else. The new rules mandate a maximum speed of ~ 50 mph if there is a problem. The new rules don't go into force until 2027.

However, the problem is with legacy engines and systems (e.g., all of our coaches)! EPA proposes that it is permissible to modify our systems to comply with the 50 mph de-rate business on legacy engines IF the system "sees" that there is DEF coming into the engine even if there are other problems that would cause a de-rate and if DEF is still being consumed, then it does not de-rate. The fact that the DEF is still getting where it needs to go would be determined from the exhaust sensors. They even apparently say that if that is true, then the owner can somehow trigger a re-set of the "fault" and bypass the de-rate entirely.

This is from a quick read of the article, but it is something that everyone of us needs to read and get a complete understanding of the problem and the resolution. This appears to remove the DEF HEAD problem from engines manufactured after 2027, but the implementation of the changes for all of us who have a problem with this issue is yet to be specified. My read is that the EPA dumps this issue right in the lap of Cummins, and my understanding is that they are dumping the whole problem into the laps of all the engine manufacturers. How it affects all of us is yet to be articulated by the manufacturers.

If people can't get access to this article, I will copy and paste it up here on the forum. This is the most important article about this subject I have read.

Gary
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Old 05-15-2022, 06:59 AM   #2
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Thanks for the insight. Hate to think the 5 to 50 mph was some sort of typo error. 50mph certainly seems a much safer speed to get somewhere safely, yet penalizing enough to make sure repair is made.
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Old 05-15-2022, 07:04 AM   #3
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Link for the article https://www.rvtravel.com/motorhomers...e-rules-1052b/
After reading the article and the long wait for anything to happen. It tells me it is okay for the DEF simulator that many of us assembled that it is okay to use it as permanent equipment until 2027. The my interpretation and I am sticking to it.
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Old 05-15-2022, 07:08 AM   #4
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Thanks for the link Chuck.... that will definitely help.

Is your "read" fundamentally consistent with mine?

Gary
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Old 05-15-2022, 07:14 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
Thanks for the link Chuck.... that will definitely help.

Is your "read" fundamentally consistent with mine?

Gary
See addition to above post.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
Thanks for the link Chuck.... that will definitely help.

Is your "read" fundamentally consistent with mine?

Gary
I also read it that Spartan should be fined and the proceeds distributed to those that were stranded for weeks, had to pay to fly home, or trips that had to be canceled and cancellation fees that had to be paid, or the several trips and days at Cuimmins dealers for repairs. But maybe that was just wishful thinking as I reading the article, but one can hope. I would be one of the first to sign the formal complaint form.
While they are at it, might as well thrown the radiators in on the Classics.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:08 AM   #7
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I apologize that I'm in a bit of a rush, but I believe this may be the EPA presentation that drove the article linked (https://www.rvtravel.com/motorhomers...e-rules-1052b/) above:

May 2022_HD2027_EPA-Serviceability Workshop (1).pdf

If so, here's info from the EPA presentation:

Public comment period open through May 16
• Submit comments on https://www.regulations.gov/docket/EPA-HQ-OAR-2019- 0055/document
• See the “Public Participation” section of the preamble on page 17415 of the preamble for instructions on how to submit comments and how EPA handles confidential business information (“CBI”)
o For example, comments can be submitted by emailing: a-and-r-Docket@epa.gov and including “Docket ID No. EPA– HQ–OAR– 2019–0055” in the subject line of the message.


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Old 05-15-2022, 08:11 AM   #8
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We need the government to step in and make the manufacturers provide a mandatory 150,000 mile emissions warranty on all engines, diesel and gas. They can design and provide a system that will last longer than getting the rig off the lot.

Ken
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:30 AM   #9
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I would like to see emissions regulations scaled back rather than go after manufacturers and owners for not complying with unrealistic NOx standards. NOx is a natural substance in our atmosphere and is in fact a necessary part of the nitrogen cycle that helps to fertilize plant growth. NOx is not a health problem for most of us. It only becomes a problem in certain cities where atmospheric conditions prevent its dispersion. Southern California is one of those and they should deal with it, of course, but the rest of us should not be subjected to these regulations.
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:40 AM   #10
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NOx gases in diesel car fumes: Why are they so dangerous?

https://phys.org/news/2015-09-nox-ga...car-fumes.html
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Old 05-15-2022, 08:54 AM   #11
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NOx is our friend:
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:22 AM   #12
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IMO, Nitrogen is our friend..... air pollution is NOT.

Stu, the article you provided a link to appears to be virtually a copy of the article that I cited today and contained in todays RVTravel newsletter. I didnt see any new information in the earlier article than I got out of the one dated today.

Chuck, I agree with you. If this ends up being some idea that Cummins and other diesel manufacturers or Spartan and other chassis manufacturers "made up" out of their own logic, then a class action suit against the whole industry would not be out of order. This has been an outrage for the past 12-18 months. Almost everyone is at fault except owners of motorcoaches and probably other commercial vehicles. A suit will never happen because a collection of motorcoach owners will never win a court battle with the deep pocketed engine / chassis industry, so we can all not hold our breath. There have been rumors that the commercial trucking businesses have had similar problems with DEF issues, and if the trucking industry has been inconvenienced and made to spend tons of money also dealing with this nuttiness, then maybe a legal challenge would stand some chance of getting off the ground. Our task would be to make sure that they include us in any action. But it is a classic example of a serious risk being created by a bunch of bozos who have little invested in our "industry"

I have said before, and will say again, this whole thing (and I'd be happy to include the radiator fiasco in my judgement) is a fiasco of major proportions which have caused risk, cost, and inconvenience to a small group of consumers..... us!!!

Gary
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Old 05-15-2022, 09:30 AM   #13
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Chemistry is not the issue, it is how it is currently being allowed to shut down diesel engine, leaving owners strand or inconvenienced after paying for a "working system:
".. Beating the "Green New Deal" to death is not solving the problem.
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Old 05-15-2022, 10:48 AM   #14
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Can’t speak to compensation to those that lost dollars due to cancelled trips or not being able to use their coaches.
But, engine (Cummins) and Spartan (chassis) manufacturer’s in our case, should provide and install all coaches with the electronics by-pass (or similar) that Archer and friends created out of necessity and shared with those that needed it.
Nobody should drive in fear of an unnecessary breakdown through no fault of their own.
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