Community Forums

Ann n Gene · 09-19-2016, 09:54 PM

Thanks Pat. Clear as mud😃😃!

2016 44 B Topaz Cornerstone
2014 MKT towed

wmpbauer · 09-19-2016, 11:23 PM

Wel, I guess you got the sarcasm, then!

The controversy about equalization is partly semantic, partly manufacturing expediency, partly poorly matched parts, and partly industry-wide standards. And none of it gets us a better coach for the long haul. It could all be great, if it was really important to our manufacturer. But I think they've just stuck with same ol' same ol'. They're just batteries, right? We gotta put some in there. DONE!

But if I can spend (retail) $150.00 and totally eliminate the problem, why wouldn't Entegra put them on our coaches right from the getgo? They could probably negotiate them down to about 50.00 per coach.

My friend Mario moved his PowerPulses from his old Monaco to his New 2012 Anthem, and they're still working. His coach is 5 years old and no drop in power, no decrease in efficiency......No Equalizing Needed!

This stuff isn't rocket science.

Pat Bauer, President
Entegra Coach Owners Association
www.entegraowners.com
2017 Anthem DEQ/Ford Edge

Ann n Gene · 09-19-2016, 11:38 PM

Pat, sent you a PM

2016 44 B Topaz Cornerstone
2014 MKT towed

Gary.Jones · 09-20-2016, 06:24 AM

Pat:

What is the laboratory data that shows that these devices lead to fantastic battery performance? Is there some, beyond a person's recommendation? Do you have a link to the data? Point me in the correct direction, or should I just read through all the literature from the manufacturer?

Gary

Gary.Jones · 09-20-2016, 06:33 AM

I am not sure about the "equalization" process for the new coaches (non-classics), but the process advocated by PJ (actually, I have never heard of anyone advocating for equalization other than PJ..... I have not read any document from Entegra under their banner that advocates Equalization of our AGM batteries)(is there anything?) is done in a lecture/introduction. Anyhow, if I remember the information from 757Driver, the equalization voltage is approximately 15.5 volts being pumped through our 12 volt systems. I thought it was interesting that one of the last posters noted that when he does equalize, his system faults and has to be rebooted. Somehow, that is not surprising.

Gary

Saltydog44 · 09-20-2016, 06:40 AM

1. As noted above there is some poor design on the Vegatouch that would allow a non-time critical message like "Equalize" to occur at 2AM. Also there is no "snooze" function to temporarily delay the action for some period of time. I've discussed this with Leon at Firefly.

2. The confusion about equalizing is a pretty poor reflection on how Entegra reached their conclusion, but also the battery world in general. Entegra's logic is usually easier to follow than this but at least their direction is very clear: Equalize.

3. Pat - how do you bypass the demand to Equalize? I like your idea.

Dr4Film · 09-20-2016, 06:45 AM

I'll throw my 2 cents into this thread by stating that in the 15 plus years of RVing I have NEVER equalized any of my battery banks in my coach.

Like Pat Bauer, I chose to add a Power-Pulse to each battery bank, House and Chassis, which takes care of any lead sufation that may occur on the battery plates.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

DeeGee · 09-20-2016, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmpbauer

And none of it gets us a better coach for the long haul. It could all be great, if it was really important to our manufacturer. But I think they've just stuck with same ol' same ol'. They're just batteries, right? We gotta put some in there. DONE!

I'd love to see a modernized coach, designed as a joint effort between Entegra, Spartan and even Cummins. Make a chassis with a lithium battery pack, excellent monitoring, correct and heavy-duty electronics so one can easily go heavy solar, build in both a wired and a wireless network, etc.

wmpbauer · 09-20-2016, 11:34 AM

Gary.Jones,

I took Mario's word and the word of the shop manager at Entegra.

By all means, google it....

Pat Bauer, President
Entegra Coach Owners Association
www.entegraowners.com
2017 Anthem DEQ/Ford Edge

wmpbauer · 09-20-2016, 11:36 AM

Entegra has programmed Vegatouch, telling you to equalize. It announces itself.

Pat Bauer, President
Entegra Coach Owners Association
www.entegraowners.com
2017 Anthem DEQ/Ford Edge

wmpbauer · 09-20-2016, 11:40 AM

SaltyDog,

When the Vegatouch says to equalize, just hit the equalize button and when it turns on, immediately turn it off and that resets it for another three months. That way you fool the system demand to equalize and the Pulse Tech will do it's thing.

Pat Bauer, President
Entegra Coach Owners Association
www.entegraowners.com
2017 Anthem DEQ/Ford Edge

757driver · 09-20-2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmpbauer

Sorry, but both Entegra Coach and Discover Energy do recommend equalization of their AGMs, in a manner speaking, but some of their literature is contradictory and it is all very confusing. Certainly the charging profile that is being used on the Vegatouch (AGM2) doesn't quite match the ideal charging profile recommended by Discover Energy for their Dry Traction batteries. (Not to be confused with their flooded-cell batteries). They never do actually get fully charged!

Discover's equalization profile (what they call a balance charge) is somewhat different than the capabilities of the Magnum Inverters, but since we aren't privy to the Magnum Energy curve, there is lots of room for confusion and doubt, and results in a lack of trust. Certainly the crossed-up definitions between "balance charge" and "equalization" are impediments to understanding. And the equalization capability of the Magnum inverter doesn't match the balance charge profile recommended by Discover....not even close!

There is no doubt however, and all of the players agree, that failure of AGM batteries is most generally the result of sulfite deposition on the plates. That's why they (Entegra) recommends occasional equalization be done, near as I can figure.

I've sidestepped all of that by adding the Pulse Tech PowerPulse battery maintainers. With those on your batteries, you NEVER need to equalize because the batteries are subjected to a scrubbing electronic vibration similar to the ultrasonic cleaning that we get at the dentist. These are in use in military applications and are also used in the shops at Entegra on their battery operated equipment. Extend battery life, increase efficiency, and maximize efficiency. Sounds like a win win to me.

http://www.pulsetech.net/Content/Our...echnology.aspx

I installed 3 of these, 2 for my (4) L-16 house batteries, and 1 for my starting batteries.

PP-12-L PowerPulse 12-Volt Battery Maintenance System

Pat

Pat Bauer, President
Entegra Coach Owners Association
Entegra Coach Owners Association - Home
2017 Anthem DEQ/Ford Edge

Pat,

Depending on who you talk to at Discover Battery you get two different answers. One says to go ahead and equalize (the president of Discover) and one says do not equalize (an engineer at Discover). ALL Discover's literature says do not equalize their AGM batteries. I will take the engineers advice over a figure head presidents advice and will not equalize mine.

All of our AGM batteries have vents on the cells. If the pressure gets too high (read a few psi) the batteries will vent. If the batteries vent they will dry out. If they dry out they are ruined. As you equalize a flooded battery it bubbles vigorously which will increase the pressure and vent out the caps. Will this happen with our AGM's and vent? I don't want to find out. What is the purpose of equalizing anyway? In a flooded battery it is to help with desulfating the plates and mix the solution top to bottom. In an AGM battery there is no solution to mix so the only thing it can help with is desulfation.

In the new 2017's Entegra uses AGM1 not AGM2 charge profile in the inverters. I maintain (and the Discover engineer that I talked to agrees) if a Discover AGM battery is properly charged and not overly abused in terms of DOD (around 50%) then equalizing should not be required. What is a properly charged Discover AGM battery, either the L-16 or the smaller EVGC6A-B? Discover's charge algorithms recommend 14.7v, those with 2016 and earlier coaches will have AGM2 set in their inverters which will give a charge algorithm of 14.5v. Those with the 2017's will have AGM1 charge profile set in their inverters which gives a charge algorithm of 14.3v. While it does not sound like a huge difference it is. If a battery is not charged to its recommended voltage it will not get fully charged and will sulfate sooner.

Why did Entegra switch from AGM2 to AGM1 in the 2017's? The only reason I can think of is because you cannot equalize under AGM2 but you can under AGM1. So for the ability to equalize your battery you are charging it to 0.4 volts less than is recommended. Properly charge the batteries and equalizing will not be required.

Entegra and their battery distributor (Harris battery) say that there is a special charge algorithm that they call a "system balance charge" built into the Magnum inverters for Entegra which charges to 15.5v but at a low controlled current. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Magnum inverter is only capable of a manual equalize charge cycle. In other words the charger in each inverter will put out up to the maximum current that each inverter is rated for in order to ramp the battery voltage up to the 15.5v and keep it there for 4 hours. The current slowly tapers off once the 15.5v is reached. In doing a short test with my system I have seen combined current from the two inverters over 100 DC amps when put into an equalize cycle. Does this sound like a low controlled current? Discover Battery recommends a current of about 8 amps DC when charging with one of their recommended chargers that is capable of Balance Charging.

The Magnum inverters can only be put into an equalize cycle if the batteries are in Float or Full Charge. Magnum only wants you to equalize a fully charged battery. When your battery bank is in Full Charge it can be down as much as 10% (measured on my system with a Trimetric battery monitor) because when in Full Charge the inverter will not switch back to Float Charge until the battery bank drops to 12.6v or less. Imagine what the current would ramp up to if the equalize cycle was started when the inverters were in Full Charge mode?

I have discussed much of this information with Entegra in a lenghly email which included the Discover charge algorithms but after several months I have yet to receive a response of any sort. Very disappointing to say the least.

Equalize if you so choose, but I certainly will not be doing it.

DSL417 · 09-20-2016, 01:08 PM

Well, to say the least, I am totally confused on what I should do. I know the batteries have been "abused" because of the Command 30 software performance issue that has been fixed in the new 4.0 software update. So do I equalize or not...or do I just try to get Entegra to replace the batteries that may be beyond fixing, because I know they are not performing, based upon the number of times per night the generator is running when we dry camp.

Appreciate any insight as I wait, now two days for a call back from PJ, same subject.

757driver · 09-20-2016, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSL417

Well, to say the least, I am totally confused on what I should do. I know the batteries have been "abused" because of the Command 30 software performance issue that has been fixed in the new 4.0 software update. So do I equalize or not...or do I just try to get Entegra to replace the batteries that may be beyond fixing, because I know they are not performing, based upon the number of times per night the generator is running when we dry camp.

Appreciate any insight as I wait, now two days for a call back from PJ, same subject.

Dave,

From what you describe with your batteries I think it may be too late to save the one or ones that have gone bad. Have Entegra load test them and see what the results are.