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Old 11-17-2022, 04:42 PM   #1
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EV Fires

I had posted regarding a few EV fires in Florida when battery's got wet and the problems it caused with with the fire departments. I really would like this technology vetted before people start losing their lives and property over uncontrollable fires. It is always defended by saying more diesels and gas engines catch fire. I do not understand the they did it so we can too mentality.



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Old 11-18-2022, 06:01 AM   #2
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Electric Vehicle or Fridge Fire (same result)

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Originally Posted by Dieselgem View Post
I had posted regarding a few EV fires in Florida when battery's got wet and the problems it caused with with the fire departments. I really would like this technology vetted before people start losing their lives and property over uncontrollable fires. It is always defended by saying more diesels and gas engines catch fire. I do not understand the they did it so we can too mentality.



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We at Fridge Defend have learned a lesson on how things are done.
When we found the solution to Dometic and Norcold fires, we applied "Fair Play and Logic".

Our solution was so obvious that we felt that the two manufactures of these, otherwise, fine refrigerators would be knocking down our door.

We never guess that a false information campaign would be launched against us by posters that post up to 8 posts per day for years. The cooperation's decided that they make more money doing what they were doing rather than fixing the problem.

So, do not think that fair play and logic will work for EV either. The goal is to make money, and if someone gets killed in the process, well that is the cost of doing business.

We are glad to say that this whole lesson has been very meaningful for my wife and I. We have been given an opportunity to do good for others, and we feel very fortunate for this opportunity to help others. It is said that adversity makes one stronger, it it is proved day in and day out. But why subject people to adversity when it is not necessary?

Safety is all of our job, and we buy products in good faith.
We do not buy products because they are unreasonably dangerous
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Old 11-18-2022, 06:10 AM   #3
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Not sure how this can be resolved or if even possible, there's a pretty big energy source there, kind of unstoppable once started. It reminds me of electrical plant fires, once you have that sustained arc there is no stopping it. I've seen a single mistake cause an arc flash explosion that burned the whole plant down.
When you have batteries with enough power packed into them to push 2 or 3 tons down the road at 75 MPH that's a lot of potential.
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Old 11-18-2022, 06:42 AM   #4
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What bothers me some is the cause of fires, and the difficulty of extinguishing them.
The ones mentioned in Florida are clear - flooded car's batteries short and burn. And by the nature of their construction, they are harder to extinguish.
What about those that burn in other situations? What caused those fires?
I understand what can cause a fire in an ICE, fuel leaking on the exhaust manifold (which happened to me long ago,) oil line rupture spraying oil on hot components, as I have heard of diesels doing. Nothing is absolutely safe, but we have a feel for the probability with the ICE. I am certain my Jeep will not start burning in my garage hours after shutdown. Though the odds are small, I am less certain of an EV, and less certain still of one that will spend much of the night charging.
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Old 11-18-2022, 06:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fridge Defend View Post
We at Fridge Defend have learned a lesson on how things are done.
When we found the solution to Dometic and Norcold fires, we applied "Fair Play and Logic".

Our solution was so obvious that we felt that the two manufactures of these, otherwise, fine refrigerators would be knocking down our door.

We never guess that a false information campaign would be launched against us by posters that post up to 8 posts per day for years. The cooperation's decided that they make more money doing what they were doing rather than fixing the problem.

So, do not think that fair play and logic will work for EV either. The goal is to make money, and if someone gets killed in the process, well that is the cost of doing business.

We are glad to say that this whole lesson has been very meaningful for my wife and I. We have been given an opportunity to do good for others, and we feel very fortunate for this opportunity to help others. It is said that adversity makes one stronger, it it is proved day in and day out. But why subject people to adversity when it is not necessary?

Safety is all of our job, and we buy products in good faith.
We do not buy products because they are unreasonably dangerous
Lest we forget, it was only a few years back Boeing, in the classic state of denial, was assuring everyone the only reason there new jumbo jet was flying into the ground like a yard dart was pilot error ( when in truth the pilot had no way to retake control over the systems software).
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Old 11-19-2022, 05:05 AM   #6
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Smart People

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Lest we forget, it was only a few years back Boeing, in the classic state of denial, was assuring everyone the only reason there new jumbo jet was flying into the ground like a yard dart was pilot error ( when in truth the pilot had no way to retake control over the systems software).
As a control systems engineer, and an aviation enthuses, I follow these kinds of accidents. And I could not agree more with your observations.

Here are the questions:

Did the engineers design a great system with plenty of fail safe that included rapid switching to manual controls for the 737 MAX? And, the accountants picked what they wanted - and what they did not want? No one is ever going to know. It could be just like the RV industry, when we first launched our product a guy at a rally stated to me:

"I would not tell people that you are an engineer, most of the engineers in the RV industry never drove an RV"

And yes, energy density is the issue here. As was pointed out, if there is enough energy to push a car down the road, and if that energy is released in a short period of time, it is destructive. Anything that has a high concentration of energy needs fail safe engineering. But, a battery is a chemical process, and when that process runs away it is hard to stop. Thus, the solutions could be expensive, and consumers may not want to pay the price.

I am no expert in modern batteries, just applying safe engineering practice.
Accidents happen no matter how well something is engineered, but when accidents become a public safety issue, they should be addressed.

Stay safe
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Old 11-19-2022, 08:10 AM   #7
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Just my opinion but it will partially come down to customer risk tolerance. Obviously most people are fine with the higher risk of fire with gas vehicles. Those with lower risk tolerance will gravitate to electric vehicles. But most people are fine with gas vehicles and the much higher risk of fire that comes with them. As well, explosions are more likely to occur with liquid fuel fires whereas EV fires tend to take a little longer to get going. I personally have no qualms about getting in a gas vehicle as the fire risk is still reasonably low.

Bottom line is it will be decided on an individual model basis. Vehicle models that are more likely to have a fire wether gas or electric will be flagged as such and insurance companies will react accordingly. There is something like 26000 more electric vehicles hitting the road each day every day in the world. I’m sure the insurance industry is paying attention.

All JMHO.
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Old 11-20-2022, 04:26 AM   #8
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Fair Play and Logic

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I’m sure the insurance industry is paying attention.

All JMHO.
Yep, they do not miss a thing.

Most things in life have risk, the objective is to minimize risk for the smart person. This is why we try to teach our kids to be defensive drivers. This is also why engineers have jobs, they are supposed to use knowledge, skills and abilities to look forward to see potential risk and minimize it.

The Ford pinto is a great example of paying attention to risk -- and profit The accountants run the numbers, they are paying attention.

Do you think my parents would have allowed me to learn to drive in a Ford Pinto if they knew the risk that we know of now? And, how the cooperation viewed the fact that a human life has a value placed on it, and as a result there is an accounting formula that "industry is paying attention" to. As a young high risk driver, my life was valued at I think around $100k at the time.

Sure, fair play and logic rule
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Old 11-20-2022, 04:56 AM   #9
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Most new tech goes through this period of higher than normal issues.

In the quest to get EVs into the mainstream, I guess that many unresolved issues make it into our lives.

Look at how many recalls are every year on tech that has been considered very safe for decades.

In my eyes, it is less about the batteries catching fire than the actual fire they cause and how hard it is to extinguish. In the maritime world, I have read that insurance carriers are prohibiting containers with used EVs in them from being shipped on container ships they insure. The loss of too many container ships of late due to fires they couldn't control is the reason.

Yes I am skeptical of SOME Li battery chemistries being safe indoors (not so much for smaller batteries/devices) for now... but there are ways to mitigate any risks. So when in doubt, mitigate not eliminate if that is even more impractical.

I wouldn't use the Boing 737 Max issue as an example...there is a LOT more to that story other than a couple of crashes. Tragic yes, but in my aviation accident training/experience and the limited access to the facts, the crashes were used beyond the normal fearmongering levels to determine a course of mitigation/correction... fortunately not elimination of the B-737 Max.
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Old 11-20-2022, 05:17 AM   #10
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Here’s a interesting article:

Gas vs. Electric Car Fires [2022 Findings]
https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-...ric-car-fires/
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