Freightliner Chassis

[LWBAZ]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

Just as an aside - I've never had any issues with mine. 50,000 miles and 6 years with no problems. I've never run it below 1/4 tank, I do fill it up to between 3/4 and full, and I store it in winter outside in Wisconsin (brrr) with about 1/4 tank. Like most things, I think that an 18 wheeler who puts on steady miles compared to an RV that sits longer between runs may have even better odds of racking up miles between failures.

Mark, I believer the odds are good that you'll never have a problem. I know your coach is a 2016, but I believe the coach (or at least its chassis) was built in 2015. Vehicles/chassis built prior to 2016 were not required to have a DEF sensor that monitored what is referred to as "concentration." I take "concentration" to mean what is currently referred to as DEF quality.

The current DEF head unit sensors monitor three things - DEF quality (ratio of urea to water), DEF level (how much is in the tank), and DEF temperature. Based on what I've read, the pre-2016 DEF sensors only needed to monitor level and temperature. I'm not sure what those pre-2016 sensors used to detect temperature, but I do know they used a simple float to detect level.

The point being, I believe there is a good chance you have a simpler DEF sensor, which is probably a lot less failure prone than the newer electronic DEF sensors. In other words, the value of your coach on the used market may well be higher than you would have ever imagined!

[BrettDavis]

I read this thread late last night when I got back to my hotel room from a Rally. As those of you who know me know, I don’t know which end of a screwdriver to hold, which is why I hold such people as Brobox, LWBAZ, and Cruzer in high esteem. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, I am an information junkie. Data always tells the story for me.

I know I had my own observations on DEF Head failure rates, but they would have been antidotal at best. So, out of curiosity I texted our Director of Parts late last night, and received back the information this morning.

Our Director of Parts did a company wide search for the past 18 months by our part number for the Spartan DEF Head, and our part number for the Freightliner DEF Head. This would account for all DEF Heads NIRVC has purchased over the past 18 months for replacement for either a customer pay or warranty claim. Including, whether NIRVC did the DEF Head replacement, or a mobile Freightliner technician replaced the DEF Head on our lot, or we sent the coach to Freightliner for replacement.

For the past 18 months our company has processed 64 Spartan DEF Head replacements, and one Freightliner DEF Head replacement.

While a much smaller number of DEF Head failures than I was expecting to see over the past 18 months, it’s still a lot of failures if you’re one of the unlucky coach owners who has been left stranded on the side of the road like I was in Jal, New Mexico for 3 days.

Next, Cummins supplies the DEF Module which controls the DEF Head. Freightliner is contractually bound not to disclose their vendors, as their vendors don’t want to be dealing with Freightliner’s customers directly. Notwithstanding, I am at liberty to say Shaw Industries does NOT supply Freightliner with their DEF Heads.

Yes it is true, Freightliner is one of several sponsors of AIM. However, when it comes to data and information, I don’t play favorites, because at the end of the day my paycheck is paid by coach owners, and not the manufacturers, or their vendors.

Each of you can draw your own conclusions from the experience of our Service Centers when it comes to DEF Head failures. I’m merely reporting the data for those who are asking for a friend.

Onward,
Brett

[wolfe10]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

FWIW - The emissions systems on these new Tier IV engines are considered part of the engine. the SCR and DEF components are covered under the Cummins warranty and supplied with the engine to the chassis builders. Therefore I would assume that the DEF heads would be the same between any Cummins powered chassis. I can see why Volvo isn't having any problems because they have no connection with Cummins as far as components go. I guess it's possible that the DEF heads might not be considered part of the engine and just meet the engine manufacturer's approval or specifications but my guess is that they are. As a disclaimer - I haven't researched this issue because I haven't had any DEF head problems so this is my guess based upon what I do know about Cummins owning the emissions gear. And I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night either so I may be wrong.

An interesting point. I have no idea if the engine manufacturer (Cummins in this case) spec the DEF components or in this is done by the chassis maker.


Would appreciate it if someone with the Spartan chassis/Cummins engine and a DEF/SCR issue would contact Cummins with their engine serial number and get the FACTS on whether this is a Cummins or chassis maker part.


Look forward to your report.


Cummins: 800-286-6467

[zman62]

Originally Posted by BrettDavis

I read this thread late last night when I got back to my hotel room from a Rally. As those of you who know me know, I don’t know which end of a screwdriver to hold, which is why I hold such people as Brobox, LWBAZ, and Cruzer in high esteem. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, I am an information junkie. Data always tells the story for me.

I know I had my own observations on DEF Head failure rates, but they would have been antidotal at best. So, out of curiosity I texted our Director of Parts late last night, and received back the information this morning.

Our Director of Parts did a company wide search for the past 18 months by our part number for the Spartan DEF Head, and our part number for the Freightliner DEF Head. This would account for all DEF Heads NIRVC has purchased over the past 18 months for replacement for either a customer pay or warranty claim. Including, whether NIRVC did the DEF Head replacement, or a mobile Freightliner technician replaced the DEF Head on our lot, or we sent the coach to Freightliner for replacement.

For the past 18 months our company has processed 64 Spartan DEF Head replacements, and one Freightliner DEF Head replacement.

While a much smaller number of DEF Head failures than I was expecting to see over the past 18 months, it’s still a lot of failures if you’re one of the unlucky coach owners who has been left stranded on the side of the road like I was in Jal, New Mexico for 3 days.

Next, Cummins supplies the DEF Module which controls the DEF Head. Freightliner is contractually bound not to disclose their vendors, as their vendors don’t want to be dealing with Freightliner’s customers directly. Notwithstanding, I am at liberty to say Shaw Industries does NOT supply Freightliner with their DEF Heads.

Yes it is true, Freightliner is one of several sponsors of AIM. However, when it comes to data and information, I don’t play favorites, because at the end of the day my paycheck is paid by coach owners, and not the manufacturers, or their vendors.

Each of you can draw your own conclusions from the experience of our Service Centers when it comes to DEF Head failures. I’m merely reporting the data for those who are asking for a friend.

Onward,


Brett

Very interesting. I always say I love numbers because they don’t lie. Can’t argue your stats. Clearly shaw needs to contact the manufacturer for FL def heads. Great info thank you...

[J Gunter]

Originally Posted by BrettDavis

I read this thread late last night when I got back to my hotel room from a Rally. As those of you who know me know, I don’t know which end of a screwdriver to hold, which is why I hold such people as Brobox, LWBAZ, and Cruzer in high esteem. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, I am an information junkie. Data always tells the story for me.

I know I had my own observations on DEF Head failure rates, but they would have been antidotal at best. So, out of curiosity I texted our Director of Parts late last night, and received back the information this morning.

Our Director of Parts did a company wide search for the past 18 months by our part number for the Spartan DEF Head, and our part number for the Freightliner DEF Head. This would account for all DEF Heads NIRVC has purchased over the past 18 months for replacement for either a customer pay or warranty claim. Including, whether NIRVC did the DEF Head replacement, or a mobile Freightliner technician replaced the DEF Head on our lot, or we sent the coach to Freightliner for replacement.

For the past 18 months our company has processed 64 Spartan DEF Head replacements, and one Freightliner DEF Head replacement.

While a much smaller number of DEF Head failures than I was expecting to see over the past 18 months, it’s still a lot of failures if you’re one of the unlucky coach owners who has been left stranded on the side of the road like I was in Jal, New Mexico for 3 days.

Next, Cummins supplies the DEF Module which controls the DEF Head. Freightliner is contractually bound not to disclose their vendors, as their vendors don’t want to be dealing with Freightliner’s customers directly. Notwithstanding, I am at liberty to say Shaw Industries does NOT supply Freightliner with their DEF Heads.

Yes it is true, Freightliner is one of several sponsors of AIM. However, when it comes to data and information, I don’t play favorites, because at the end of the day my paycheck is paid by coach owners, and not the manufacturers, or their vendors.

Each of you can draw your own conclusions from the experience of our Service Centers when it comes to DEF Head failures. I’m merely reporting the data for those who are asking for a friend.

Onward,
Brett

Well it certainly appears whoever Freightliner gets their def probes/system from has a much better handle on it than Spartan does with Shaw industry.

[brobox]

Thank you for that report from a dealers standpoint Brett. It's back to Spartan needing to get their spies working as to why their DEF head suppler cannot do the job. 64 to 1 are great odds in the Kentucky Derby, but not DEF heads in chassis.

[777 Driver]

Originally Posted by BrettDavis

For the past 18 months our company has processed 64 Spartan DEF Head replacements, and one Freightliner DEF Head replacement.

Hi Brett,

Thanks for sharing. As I get ready to depart on our, what had been until last year, annual summer migration from the east coast to the west coast and return with numerous stops in between, I'll admit that the DEF demon has been lurking on my mind. My '18 Anthem seems to be in the "at risk" group. Oh, well. I am optimistic by nature.

So, there is one more data point that would shed a little more light on the 64 Spartan:1 Freightliner ratio. What's the ballpark ratio of Spartan:Freightliner chassis sales by NIRVC. That is, if NIRVC has sold 15,000 Spartan chassis coaches and only 4 Freightliner chassis coaches, the 64:1 ratio doesn't look as bad.

Can you tell that I'm grasping at straws to substantiate my optimism?

Take care,
Stu

P.S. I've got my VIN handy and Spartan (The Shyft Group) Customer Service on speed dial, just in case.

[Mr Ted]

Freightliner Here .. 60,000 Trouble Free miles .. Its what i would expect truck from a Manufacturer who has been building Trucks for 75 Years..

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by BrettDavis

I read this thread late last night when I got back to my hotel room from a Rally. As those of you who know me know, I don’t know which end of a screwdriver to hold, which is why I hold such people as Brobox, LWBAZ, and Cruzer in high esteem. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, I am an information junkie. Data always tells the story for me.

I know I had my own observations on DEF Head failure rates, but they would have been antidotal at best. So, out of curiosity I texted our Director of Parts late last night, and received back the information this morning.

Our Director of Parts did a company wide search for the past 18 months by our part number for the Spartan DEF Head, and our part number for the Freightliner DEF Head. This would account for all DEF Heads NIRVC has purchased over the past 18 months for replacement for either a customer pay or warranty claim. Including, whether NIRVC did the DEF Head replacement, or a mobile Freightliner technician replaced the DEF Head on our lot, or we sent the coach to Freightliner for replacement.

For the past 18 months our company has processed 64 Spartan DEF Head replacements, and one Freightliner DEF Head replacement.

While a much smaller number of DEF Head failures than I was expecting to see over the past 18 months, it’s still a lot of failures if you’re one of the unlucky coach owners who has been left stranded on the side of the road like I was in Jal, New Mexico for 3 days.

Next, Cummins supplies the DEF Module which controls the DEF Head. Freightliner is contractually bound not to disclose their vendors, as their vendors don’t want to be dealing with Freightliner’s customers directly. Notwithstanding, I am at liberty to say Shaw Industries does NOT supply Freightliner with their DEF Heads.

Yes it is true, Freightliner is one of several sponsors of AIM. However, when it comes to data and information, I don’t play favorites, because at the end of the day my paycheck is paid by coach owners, and not the manufacturers, or their vendors.

Each of you can draw your own conclusions from the experience of our Service Centers when it comes to DEF Head failures. I’m merely reporting the data for those who are asking for a friend.

Onward,
Brett

This all sounds entirely consistent with my findings, although I have to dig a little deeper for my information. But the results are the same.

[BrettDavis]

Originally Posted by 777 Driver

Hi Brett,



Thanks for sharing. As I get ready to depart on our, what had been until last year, annual summer migration from the east coast to the west coast and return with numerous stops in between, I'll admit that the DEF demon has been lurking on my mind. My '18 Anthem seems to be in the "at risk" group. Oh, well. I am optimistic by nature.



So, there is one more data point that would shed a little more light on the 64 Spartan:1 Freightliner ratio. What's the ballpark ratio of Spartan:Freightliner chassis sales by NIRVC. That is, if NIRVC has sold 15,000 Spartan chassis coaches and only 4 Freightliner chassis coaches, the 64:1 ratio doesn't look as bad.



Can you tell that I'm grasping at straws to substantiate my optimism?



Take care,

Stu



P.S. I've got my VIN handy and Spartan (The Shyft Group) Customer Service on speed dial, just in case.

Stu,

I’m so sorry, but the information you’re requesting from me would not be meaningful. at all! And, here’s why.

We service a LOT more coaches than we sell, by a factor of more than 20 to 1. We service all makes and models, whether we sold them or not. Service has, is, and always will be the “hub of our wheel.” The sales numbers you’re requesting would have no correlations to the DEF Head failures we’ve seen in our service centers.

However, I can share this market information with you, and you might find it more meaningful. 67% of all diesel motorhome chassis are Freightliner, 17% are Spartan, and 16% are Tiffin.

I hope this helps,
Brett

[LWBAZ]

Great info Brett – thanks for sharing. Always good to see your posts here on iRV2.

Like Stu, Amy & I will be hitting the road before long and it’s safe to say the reliability of the Shaw DEF heads has crossed my mind once or twice. We got almost 35,000 miles on our original Gen 5 and I was optimistic the Gen 6 I installed a few months ago would do as good or better. But before my shiny new Gen 6 had time to accumulate a respectable layer of road grime, Shaw came out with a Gen 7. So much for optimism.

I’m reminded of the last year or two the Indy cars ran turbocharged four-cylinder Offenhauser engines in the mid-1970’s. To remain competitive with the Ford V-8’s, the turbo boost levels were increased multiple times, to the point that reliability was, let us say, severely compromised.

I can’t recall who the driver was – I’m thinking it was Mark Donahue or Bobby Unser – but in any case someone blew an engine toward the end of a race at the now defunct Ontario Motor Speedway in southern California. In an interview after the failure, the driver’s comment was, “Well, based on what we’re doing with these engines, they’re basically hand grenades. The only question is whether you can make it to the checkered flag before the explosion.”

Like Stu, I’m an optimist by nature, but I have to admit the hand grenade analogy has crossed my mind once or twice.

[777 Driver]

Originally Posted by BrettDavis

However, I can share this market information with you, and you might find it more meaningful. 67% of all diesel motorhome chassis are Freightliner, 17% are Spartan, and 16% are Tiffin.

Hi Brett,

Thanks, so much, for the clarification. Not surprisingly, your answer revealed more valuable information than my question had solicited.

Still, try as you might, you haven't destroyed my optimism.

Cindy, on the other hand, might have more difficulty putting those data out of mind. Somehow, I don't think that the possession of that knowledge would enhance the quality of her life. Perhaps it's a good thing she doesn't monitor iRV2.

We're still departing on Friday, comfortable with the knowledge that, even if we end up with a DEF delay somewhere along the way, we've got a pretty nice place to live while we sort it out.

Take care,
Stu

[Gary.Jones]

Very interesting numbers. Since Newmar is now no-longer using Freightliner chassis in their top two model lines (but did offer that option for maybe 3 or 4 years), then almost 70% of all motorcoaches are riding on Freightliner chasses. I'm now going to need to spend a good amount of time trying to figure what are all those manufacturers that build their coaches on Freightliner chassis (I'm guessing that we are talking about non-Class A diesel pusher motorcoaches). I could only think of a handful of Class A manufacturers on Freightliners, and I know they are not accounting for 70% of all Class A coaches that are being sold.... Going to have to do more research and come up with more names.

And I made this point earlier in this thread, and will now repeat it. It is clear that Shaw simply needs to hire a couple of engineers that think in a completely different way to design what they are trying to produce, or alternately, buy one of Freightliner's DEF heads and copy as much of it as they can within patent rights limitations (probably not much), and if that doesn't work, then license Freightliner's OEM source to start to make Shaw's DEF heads.... Sometimes it is easier to surrender than it is to continue to fight.

Gary

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Mr Ted

Freightliner Here .. 60,000 Trouble Free miles .. Its what i would expect truck from a Manufacturer who has been building Trucks for 75 Years..

That statement mean absolutely nothing without what year the engine is. Was it a DEF sensor required engine?