The more I have thought about Spartan's 1 out of 100 statement, I would sure have liked to have been part of the conversation. From that statement without documentation, they just moved down to the used car salesmen status for me. What else could they say at a show with thousands of attendees? I don't think all of the people that had trips ruined, cancel or stranded would have believed him either.
Again, without test documentation, how does he know the Gen 7 is the "fix" just like Gen 6 and all of the others were?
My grandmother always said figures lie because liars figure.
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As expressed in another thread on this topic, here is my take on the value of the software patch Cummins announced:
- You have to have a failure before they will allow the patch to be applied.
- The intent of the patch is to allow you to drive from wherever you were stranded to the nearest Cummins service facility.
- Once the Cummins service facility installs a replacement DEF head, the patch is removed.
This approach is somewhat akin to telling police officers in training that bulletproof vests are available to offer protection in the event of an armed confrontation. However, to be issued a vest you must first get shot. And once you recover, you have to return the vest. But no worries, if you get shot again you will be issued another vest.
The way I read it you have to get to a Cummins shop to have patch installed which means you may be limping or towed. What source do you have that says Cummins will come to where you are stranded? And will they do it at no charge?
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Jerry - 2021 Entegra Anthem 44F
2017 Grand Cherokee
sold 2018 Entegra Aspire 42DEQ Sweet Victory
The shop is talking to Spartan right now, so hopefully we'll have at least a direction to head today or tomorrow. I'll keep you informed ...
Gordon1152. Based on your description of the problem (ie that it comes and goes) makes me suspect a problem with the connector or the wiring harness. The symptoms of Every failure that I have ever heard of is that once all 3 codes are set they never clear by themselves. When the units fail, they fail 100% and simply goes silent. If it were just the quality sensor or the temperature sensor alone the device actually has internal fault monitoring and would have sent a completely different set of SPNs. My suspicion is that the actual failure is likely in the CANBUS communication system or is a voltage regulator/Power supply failure.
The way I read it you have to get to a Cummins shop to have patch installed which means you may be limping or towed. What source do you have that says Cummins will come to where you are stranded? And will they do it at no charge?
Jerry, a couple of points in response to your questions:
1) I didn't say (but may have inadvertently implied) Cummins will come to a stranded owner. My understanding is that Cummins will - under certain circumstances - allow an authorized mobile tech to install the patch so the owner can safely drive his or her coach to the nearest Cummins facility to have the DEF head replaced. Whether that mobile service call would be covered by Cummins, I don't know.
2) If that isn't the case and the reality is as you described - "you have to get to a Cummins shop to have patch installed which means you may be limping or towed" -what would be the point of the patch? In other words, once you're at a Cummins facility (whether you limped in or were towed), why would they apply the patch rather than replace the DEF head?
If the answer to that question is "So you can continue to drive your coach until a replacement DEF head is available," my understanding is that Cummins will most definitely not allow that.
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Larry & Amy Beckner
Scottsdale, AZ
2022 Newmar Super Star 4061
Jerry, a couple of points in response to your questions:
1) I didn't say (but may have inadvertently implied) Cummins will come to a stranded owner. My understanding is that Cummins will - under certain circumstances - allow an authorized mobile tech to install the patch so the owner can safely drive his or her coach to the nearest Cummins facility to have the DEF head replaced. Whether that mobile service call would be covered by Cummins, I don't know.
2) If that isn't the case and the reality is as you described - "you have to get to a Cummins shop to have patch installed which means you may be limping or towed" -what would be the point of the patch? In other words, once you're at a Cummins facility (whether you limped in or were towed), why would they apply the patch rather than replace the DEF head?
If the answer to that question is "So you can continue to drive your coach until a replacement DEF head is available," my understanding is that Cummins will most definitely not allow that.
Larry I would really like to see the final guidance from Cummins as I have seen a variety of interpretations in different places. In a truckers blog it says that the patch will be installed so trucks can continue to be driven until replacement heads are available. I have not seen elsewhere anything about mobile technicians.
Now is it truly a software patch that Cummins is making available and not a device? If so how does Cummins control where a mobile tech applies the patch? And how does Cummins control how much the RV/truck is driven with the patch?
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Jerry - 2021 Entegra Anthem 44F
2017 Grand Cherokee
sold 2018 Entegra Aspire 42DEQ Sweet Victory
Based on the communication between the shop and Spartan Techs yesterday (including pictures of the two stored codes), Spartan is sending a new tank assembly. I can't tell you what components that includes just yet, but we'll see what happens when it arrives ...
I also don't know if any software changes or other repairs have already been completed, but as of this moment we're waiting on parts ...
At least for some owners with this problem in the past, the new head came in with a paper label with part numbers and the Gen of the head clearly indicated. Possibly you could get a picture of your label to publish here.
You'f probably need to ask for that before they start the install.
Gary
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Gary and Dee, Zowie and Bowie (traveling cat sibs)
2019 Cornerstone 45B, X15-605hp, Imperial, Spartan K3,
2013 Honda CR-V toad, Demco Excali-Bar II,
Demco Baseplate, Demco Toad Light system, 73 de W5FI
Larry I would really like to see the final guidance from Cummins as I have seen a variety of interpretations in different places. In a truckers blog it says that the patch will be installed so trucks can continue to be driven until replacement heads are available. I have not seen elsewhere anything about mobile technicians.
Now is it truly a software patch that Cummins is making available and not a device? If so how does Cummins control where a mobile tech applies the patch? And how does Cummins control how much the RV/truck is driven with the patch?
Jerry, I did some additional research and confirmed you are correct that the patch (which Cummins refers to as a "temporary calibration") can in fact be used to allow a truck (or presumably an RV) to continue operating normally, but only until a replacement DEF sensor is available. And yes, it is a software patch, not a device.
Regarding how Cummins controls how far the vehicle can be driven with the temporary calibration, here is a link to an article on the RV Travel web site by Russ De Maris, who followed the DEF sensor failure situation rather closely:
Note the following excerpts from the article, which I've identified in bold italics:
Cummins, other industry interests, and the EPA have agreed on what they’re calling “a temporary calibration” to be loaded into Cummins’ engine control systems.
The key word there is “temporary.” More on that below.
Also, you can’t just show up at a Cummins facility and have the temporary calibration loaded into your Cummins engine control system as preventative measure. Because…
First, your vehicle must already be disabled, that is, with the DEF system warning light showing up on your dashboard. If you’ve been hiding at home in the driveway, fearing to take your motorhome out on a trip lest it break down, hear this: If your DEF light isn’t illuminated, you don’t qualify for the patch.
Another condition may also rule out the software patch. Not all DEF sensor manufacturers are "fresh out" of DEF sensors. Cummins will NOT be able to provide the software patch UNLESS the DEF head in your rig is one that can [should be can’t) just be readily replaced because of a shortage. How do you know where you stand? Here’s the official word from Cummins: “We encourage [owners] to inquire by emailing care@cummins.com and include their engine serial numbers when emailing. For those OEMs that are not currently participating, we encourage customers to reach out to their vehicle manufacturer to secure a DEF sensor replacement because Cummins is not permitted to provide the calibration fix.”
My understanding is that Spartan is one of "those OEMs that are not currently participating.” And if that’s true, the availability of the Cummins temporary calibration is irrelevant to all of us with coaches on a Spartan chassis. Meaning that if we had a DEF sensor failure and were lucky enough to be a block away from a Cummins facility, we still wouldn’t be eligible for the temporary calibration and could only hope the Cummins facility had a replacement DEF sensor in stock.
For owners who are eligible for the temporary calibration, here is what Cummins has to say regarding how long they can drive with it:
“Once the supply of DEF sensors becomes available, you will be contacted and required to make a service appointment to replace the DEF sensor and restore the original engine calibration.”
That last statement implies Cummins will keep a record of each vehicle to which the temporary calibration was applied, including the owner’s name and contact info. Exactly how long the vehicle can be driven once a replacement DEF sensor is available is not specified, but I would assume Cummins was serious when they used the word “required.”
None of this answers whether Cummins will authorize one of their technicians and/or an independent mobile tech to come to a disabled or severely de-rated vehicle to apply the temporary calibration. I recall hearing/reading they would (or at least might), but I’m not currently able to find anything confirming that.
Bottom line, unless Spartan has changed their position from “not currently participating” to “participating” the temporary calibration is not available to those of us who have coaches built on a Spartan chassis. That being the case, our options are:
1) Purchase a spare DEF head (assuming Spartan or another source is willing to sell one to an owner who wants it “just in case”), or…
2) Wait for a failure, contact Spartan for a replacement DEF head, and hope they have one in stock or can recommend a source that does.
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Larry & Amy Beckner
Scottsdale, AZ
2022 Newmar Super Star 4061
Bottom line, unless Spartan has changed their position from “not currently participating” to “participating” the temporary calibration is not available to those of us who have coaches built on a Spartan chassis. That being the case, our options are:
1) Purchase a spare DEF head (assuming Spartan or another source is willing to sell one to an owner who wants it “just in case”), or…
2) Wait for a failure, contact Spartan for a replacement DEF head, and hope they have one in stock or can recommend a source that does.[/QUOTE]
Larry thanks for the detailed response. Unfortunately it does not make me feel any better. Perhaps we will hear from someone with a recent failure who will tell us the current process. It will be really interesting if someone of any brand can tell us about a mobile tech patch install.
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Jerry - 2021 Entegra Anthem 44F
2017 Grand Cherokee
sold 2018 Entegra Aspire 42DEQ Sweet Victory
Well, a third option is to carry a DSS. Seems like a no brainer
I have to totally agree. You have me beat with 3 failures, I have had 2, both on new coaches with less than 2,000 miles. The only thing I can add to that part of the conversation, is Spartan would only send my replacement DEF heads to Cummins since my storage unit is only 6 miles away. Cummins would only schedule the appointment after they had the DEF head in hand. They told me Spartan did not ship as stated sometimes. With my particular local Cummins shop, I would not look for them to jump through any hoops for Spartan. They are a Cummins Truck Repair shop, not a Coach Care Center. There is a difference...trucks come first. I would not look for Ft Myers Cummins to make a road side call without payment from somebody. Spartan "maybe" if DEF heads were back ordered again.
After stalling for 5 months, the DSS will be onboard before next travel season. It's not that I don't trust new DEF heads........I don't
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Chuck in SW FL
Digital 2021 Cornerstone "B"
A "Digital" 2019 Cornerstone "B" Traded
A "Classic" 2014 Anthem 42 RBQ---Sold
At least for some owners with this problem in the past, the new head came in with a paper label with part numbers and the Gen of the head clearly indicated. Possibly you could get a picture of your label to publish here.
You'f probably need to ask for that before they start the install.
Gary
I don't know that these will help because according to Spartan the assembly that was sent represents a change in supplier, not a change in technology ...
From that statement without documentation, they just moved down to the used car salesmen status for me. What else could they say at a show with thousands of attendees? I don't think all of the people that had trips ruined, cancel or stranded would have believed him either.
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