House Battery / Generator Questions

[NomadRider]

OK, total newb when it comes to a motorhome, so go easy on me.

I recently purchased a previously owned 2016 Entegra Aspire. It seemed to have everything that we wanted for our future full-timing plans.

When I had the coach inspected, it was noted that the house batteries were low on water, the dealer topped them off and proclaimed them fit for use. When we arrived to pick up the coach it was plugged into shore power.

The first few days we spent a good deal of time in and around the coach, all was well. We parked the coach at a storage facility about an hour away, and I made sure that the master 12v switch was turned off. I returned about 4 days later and the house batteries were reading 9v. I ran the generator for about an hour and they were reading a little over 12v when I left. Before leaving, not only did I turn the master 12v switch off, I made sure that everything in the 110v breaker panel was turned off and everything in the 12v panel was also turned off (pump, aquahot, etc). I also flipped the circuit breaker back at the chassis batteries.

Two weeks later when I returned to the coach, the house batteries were reading 3v. Yikes. They were so discharged that there was no starting the generator. I started the engine and ran a high idle long enough to bring the air pressure up and tried using the battery boost to start the generator but no luck. After some more waiting, I was able to use the battery boost to start the generator.

The generator ran for some period of time (10 minutes maybe?) and then it quit. (Plenty of fuel available > 1/2 tank). It would not restart right away, but eventually, using the battery boost again, it did. Once again, it died after running a while.

That's the history, here are the questions.
Since I've turned everything off (with the exception of the CO2 detector), the likelihood of a parasitic draw (enough to kill the batteries in 14 days) is virtually nil, right?
My gut feel is that the house batteries, while they may take a charge after some period of time, they'll not hold it and are toast. Agree?
Most baffling to me is the generator... Any reason for it to shut down? (AGS is set to manual) There was no load on the generator other than charging the house batteries - nothing else was turned on. Will the generator sense that it's not actually doing anything and turn itself off? In other words if it can't charge the batteries will it give up and shut down?

Thanks for your input,

Mike

[Elwood58]

Start by replacing the house batteries and go from there.

[LWBAZ]

Mike, with the coach being a 2016, it could have been built as early as January 2015. Assuming the house batteries are the originals (a good bet in my opinion), they are probably at least five years old. For flooded-cell deep-cycle batteries, five years (plus or minus) is about the normal useful life. And that’s assuming they were well cared for. You have at least some evidence that yours were not, since they were low on water when you had the coach inspected.

Bottom line, the first thing I would do is replace the house batteries. If you’re okay with maintaining flooded-cell batteries, you can go that way. If you plan to keep the coach a long time and would prefer the convenience of virtually zero battery maintenance, you can consider spending the extra money for AGM batteries. If you’re handy/mechanically inclined, replacing the house batteries isn’t all that difficult. If not, seek out an established battery shop or a mobile tech with a solid reputation. An RV dealer would be my last resort, unless you happen to be relatively close to one of National Indoor RV’s four locations (Atlanta, Dallas, Las Vegas and Phoenix). While you’re at it, I would also suggest replacing the chassis (engine starting) batteries.

A number of different things could be causing your generator shutdown. To answer your question, no, the generator shouldn’t be shutting itself off with the AGS set to manual. My approach would be to get the batteries replaced, then run another test to see if the generator shutdowns are still occurring. It’s not likely that defective or failing house batteries would cause random generator shutdowns, but I always prefer to address one problem at a time. And I’m pretty certain you have not-so-good house batteries.

Good luck and keep up posted on your progress.

[Arch Hoagland]

https://www.amazon.com/WirthCo-20128.../dp/B000CQFWLY

That will solve the problem.

[twinboat]

With your batteries at 3 volts, you got the generator started with the boost switch. That's good, means it works.

Problem is once you let go, the generator was running on a very low charge and as the voltage dropped back down, it died out. The generator needs battery power to run.

You would think, with the generator running that the inverter/charger would start charging the house batteries, but the charger often need to see 8+ volts before they can start charging. Once you let go of the boost switch, that probably didn't happen. Had you left the engine running, that may have been enough to keep the house battery voltage up.

When the engine is running, there is a control that basicly holds the boost switch automaticly.

As far as the batteries, as mentioned, they are probably shot.

A good set should clear up your problems.

[Elwood58]

Or buy that knife switch Arch recommends. That way you can disconnect those bad batteries.

[astrnmrtom]

I experienced something similar. Everything off, batteries dead after two weeks, Purchased and installed two cut-off switches near the batteries, one for the house, the other for the engine. Never came back to dead batteries after that. One thing to note, is running the generator for an hour won't be enough to charge dead batteries. 12V is about 50% charge. I've had to leave my batteries on a charger overnight to get to 100% when they are that dead. I'm sure it doesn't take the whole night, but it does take a long time. I found with my automatic charger set to 20 amps, it would read 100%, but if I then switched it to 6amps, it would read 85-90%. The overnight charge was at the 6amp rate and would bright it to 100%. This was with 4 year old, abused batteries that were discharged heavily an unknown number of times before we bought it and several times after.

I did not install the switches right at the battery because I didn't want a switch taking the starting load of a diesel engine. I placed them on the cables that fed everything else.

[Jolar01]

You have some options that you should take a little time and review. First merely replacing the existing 4 wet cell batteries with high quality AGM batteries like Lifeline in option no 1. However, if you are planning on boon-docking to any extent you might think about adding additional batteries. This is not straight forward to do as merely adding 4 L-16 AGM batteries (Same size just twice as tall) same battery used in 2017 Entegra. This will double your capacity however due to the location of your battery compartment and the weight of the L-16 batteries 116 lbs you will be adding 250 or so pounds to your front axle weight which most likely will put you over 16,000 pounds a problem. The solution is to move the batteries to mid Coach behind the Aquahot unit. This will require re routing and replacing battery with newer larger cabling and constructing a new battery box in the center of the Coach. Thought needs to given to battery charging as the Aspire on has a single inverter, this most likely will not be a problem and will merely require changing charging times. Moving the batteries from the front Door Side compartment will decrease the front axle loading which will be a good thing. This is probably more options than you wanted to hear. Not to change the subject have the Goodyear tires been replaced on this Coach if not they should be, go to Michelin X Coach HLZ, these tires have approximately 500 lbs additional capacity each. Good luck.
Larry

[Gary.Jones]

To me, you start by load testing all your house batteries. From the sounds of your story, you got "hosed" on the purchase and I would go back to the dealer that I bought the coach from, tell them your story, and see if they will pay for the new batteries, or give you a very deep discount for new batteries buying at their cost). That is typical behavior for most RV dealers. Many dealers don't even have the coach on 50 amp service all the time and it sits on the lot with largely "dead" batteries. I have seen situations where people trade in a coach with a list of things that they feel that they would need to replace for the new owner because they know that the batteries are weak or some other problem exists, and then watch as the dealer does absolutely nothing to repair the list items and has the coach in minimal functioning shape and decides, lets see what the new owner has trouble with (?). Some owners are connected to commercial service, and so weak batteries are not a problem. Other owners like to boondock and travel and weak batteries are an immediate problem. Some of the dealers that make the coach minimally compliant are willing to help with the problem once you bring it to their attention, and others are not. But I would try.

Either way, my advice is don't screw around with flooded cell batteries... change to good AGM batteries. Someone mentioned Lifeline which are generally considered the top of the line of good quality AGM batteries. They are pricey. If that is more than you want to tackle, then just about any of the lines that are made by a company in Pennsylvania.... someone else can give you the brands are probably the best purchase. I do a reasonable amount of boondocking in a parking lot over night when traveling or at Quartzsite so good batteries are important to me. My batteries on my 15 Anthem were getting noticeably weaker at 3.5 years and I would have replaced them. I find flooded cell batteries inappropriate for the service that a motorcoach demands. The batteries that are OEM batteries are not top of the line batteries.

Oh, its almost impossible to turn off everything on these coaches. The Aspire coaches generally have less of these electronic circuits than lets say the Cornerstone, but on any Entegra coach, it is virtually impossible to turn off all electrical loads. Unless you completely disconnect one side of the 12 volt battery bank, you will have parasitic loads that you never thought of. However, a 1940 style knife blade connection like recommended by Arch above is a really dangerous type of on-off switch.... I would never put something like that on my coach. There are modern version of those switches that cost a good deal more money, but are fully encased by plastic or protective material that have virtually no potential accidental electrical shorts or contacts.... those old knife switches have no place on a modern coach IMO.

Gary

[Persistent]

Lots of good advice above!

Motor coaches are complicated systems. You may have a lot to learn yet. As posted above, 12 volt "off" switches usually don't turn everything "off". You need to be connected to at least a 15 amp shore power outlet for storage.

Adding a house battery bank disconnect switch or disconnecting one main cable to the bank is necessary for storage without shore power or solar. Usually disconnecting the negative cable is best. Some complicated systems require disconnecting the positive cable. Get manuals for your inverter/charger/converter/transfer switch to find out which to disconnect.

Next is your understanding of lead/acid batteries. I expect you did not succeed in fully charging the battery bank when you first found the voltage down to 9 volts. Lead acid batteries have a discharging voltage profile, a charging profile, and a static voltage profile.

It takes 14 to 18 hours to fully charge lead/acid batteries. That is part of the chemistry of lead acid batteries. With a high capacity charger you can put 80% of charge back in, in 4 to 6 hours. The remaining 20% takes a long time.

When you found the voltage at 9 volts you were probably looking at "static" voltage. Fully charged static voltage would be 12.7 volts or higher. Fully discharged would be near 11.4 volts. Static voltage is when batteries have not been charging for 4 hours or more and are not being discharged. 9 or 3 volts would be drawn down below design low point.

When you stopped charging at 12.0 volts, you were looking at charging voltage profile. Charging voltage starts at the static voltage and slowly increases to the charger regulated voltage. The charger voltage depends on the charger design. It may be 13.3, 13.6, 14.4, or maybe 15.0 volts. Charging voltage should remain constant for many hours to fully charge. It may take 4 hours to get to the constant voltage point. It may take 14 hours to finish charging.

So if you stopped charging at 12.0 volts, the battery bank would be only partially charged. Without a full charge it would discharge to 3.0 volts quickly. When you stop charging, voltage will start dropping as the “surface charge” bleeds off. It should stabilize after 4 hours. That would be the static voltage. You can use the static voltage to estimate % state of charge. 12.7 volts or above is fully charged. 12.4 volts is about 50%. 11.4 volts is fully discharged.

I wish you good luck and happy trails ahead!

[kevinantholt]

I would not own a $200K or more coach without keeping it plugged into shore power all the time while in storage.
Get some electricity to it. If the storage place doesn't have it find another storage place.
Do that and most of your problems will go away.

[NomadRider]

Originally Posted by kevinantholt

I would not own a $200K or more coach without keeping it plugged into shore power all the time while in storage.
Get some electricity to it. If the storage place doesn't have it find another storage place.
Do that and most of your problems will go away.

Oh, it only it were that easy. I live in Virginia and we have personal property taxes that are determined and assessed by the county in which the vehicle is garaged. If I were to keep the coach in my county, the annual tax would be >$3000.00. That's right, more than three thousand dollars per year because it's based on the blue book value of the vehicle.

Close to me, is Prince William county and the tax to garage in that county is negligible - something like $32.00 per year - much lower than all surrounding counties. So, Prince William is very popular for RV storage and available spots with power are very rare. I'm on the wait list for one, but don't know when one will be available. If winter rolls around and one is still not available, I'll likely pull all of the batteries out, bring them home and keep them on the battery tender.

[NomadRider]

I truly appreciate all of the informative responses.

This morning I ordered 4 Lifeline AGM batteries ($320 ea) that will be in on Wednesday and hopefully installed before the weekend.

I intend to look into the knife switch that Arch recommended, at least until I can get the coach to a site with power - it seems like a quick and easy disconnect and relatively risk free on the negative side.

Thanks again, you've helped to alleviate my fears that I've bitten off more than I can chew.

Mike

[757driver]

Originally Posted by NomadRider

I truly appreciate all of the informative responses.

This morning I ordered 4 Lifeline AGM batteries ($320 ea) that will be in on Wednesday and hopefully installed before the weekend.

I intend to look into the knife switch that Arch recommended, at least until I can get the coach to a site with power - it seems like a quick and easy disconnect and relatively risk free on the negative side.

Thanks again, you've helped to alleviate my fears that I've bitten off more than I can chew.

Mike

Mike,

With the Magnum inverter you do not want the battery disconnect on the negative side. Positive must be disconnected first or fried electronics can be the result.