Ignition, Generator, and Start Issues

[DSL417]

So, I have been in a chassis shop for three days, and it hasn't been pretty.

On Wednesday, after dry camping at a rest area overnight, tried to start the next morning after the generator had run numerous times both during the ride Tuesday (425miles with generator in Auto Start position), and overnight, with as little as only the refrig and basement cooler, and not much else....I had a no start when I turned the ignition. Also had an ABS fault and a Check Transmission fault.

Tried many things with the customer service folks first at Entegra and then Spartan. Finally last resort, before towing someplace over 70 miles away and including me under the coach the starter connections and in the fuse boxes and battery areas, we cycled through the start three times (of a planned 5) with a fifteen second interval between each, generator on, once using the battery boost switch. Third time engine started and I limped into Ft Worth to the assigned chassis shop. On Friday, I retrieved coach and am sitting in Cowtown RV Campground (not bad on I20 West of Ft Worth). We haven't found the issue.
Do know that it may involve on of the ECMs in the starting series, maybe the ABS (which was changed one during manufacturing). But staying here through the weekend while Spartan and Entegra reassess the starting issue and the generator running over 20 hours over two days (no AC or heat pump...it is cold).

I did learn one thing...and I picked this up on the Spartan forum...I was never told this by RVOne, Entegra, or Spartan and I don't think there is a light, but I'll know tomorrow...

WHEN YOU TURN THE IGNITION ON TO THE ACCESSORY POSITION, WAIT AT LEAST SEVEN SECONDS BEFORE CONTINUING TO TURN THE ENGINE OVER.

This allows the electrical bus up front to cycle through all the ECMs associated with reporting status prior to starting (and maybe allowing to start). Had a discussion with the senior CAT technician and shop foreman at the chassis shop on this topic.

So if you didn't get told this, didn't know it, or needed a reminder...hopefully this will be a learning experience for you as it was for me.

[tnrzryd]

Originally Posted by DSL417

I did learn one thing...and I picked this up on the Spartan forum...I was never told this by RVOne, Entegra, or Spartan and I don't think there is a light, but I'll know tomorrow...

WHEN YOU TURN THE IGNITION ON TO THE ACCESSORY POSITION, WAIT AT LEAST SEVEN SECONDS BEFORE CONTINUING TO TURN THE ENGINE OVER.

This allows the electrical bus up front to cycle through all the ECMs associated with reporting status prior to starting (and maybe allowing to start). Had a discussion with the senior CAT technician and shop foreman at the chassis shop on this topic.

So if you didn't get told this, didn't know it, or needed a reminder...hopefully this will be a learning experience for you as it was for me.

I read about this in the User Guide for the Spartan Light Bar Message Center System. It says:

"Each time you turn the ignition on, the System lets you verify it is working by performing the initialization sequence. The System should be serviced if it does not function as shown.

Before the Initialization:
- All guage pointers move together to just below minimum scale for 1/2 second, then clockwise to minimum scale.
- All guage warning LEDs turn on for one second.
- All light bar telltales turn on for three seconds.
- All pixels in the Message Center turn on for at lest three seconds."

It doesn't say it, but I suspect that the "Wait to start" light doesn't go out until this initialization process is complete. I guess I'll have to watch next time.

[DSL417]

Tom,

From my talk with the CAT guys at the shop...this is important enough that it should be an item on the PDI checklist.

Maybe I'm just a dumb newbie, and should have read more, but I never should have left RVOne not knowing this. I suspect the techs that worked my initial punch list back in mid-Jan didn't know it because these error conditions first started showing up about that time frame during their start up of the coach.

It's possible that this change in process, for this newbie, may solve all the problems...unlikely, because i still think I have something draining the batteries, but we'll see. And it is possible it will solve nothing. But note, no mention of this came from any of the manufacturer's service reps verbally during the troubleshooting...and I'm going to go back in the user's manuals tomorrow and see why I missed it. Yes, I feel dumb for thinking that you just turn the key like you do every day with a car. Shame on me...but I'll also say that there is a lot to be learned by others about problem solving and system of systems integration (similar to thought on the surge protection discussion).

I'm not going to be a pisser and moaner ...I just want to see process improvement, continuous learning, and less problems for all in the future. I know at least one other that is having similar issues, through a PM to me. The generator issue is costing me big fuel dollars, my trip and future travel has been significantly disrupted, and my personal confidence is a little shaken.

[tnrzryd]

Dave

I didn't mean anything by my posting what I read in the manual. I guess I worded it wrong as I was trying to add a little to your "seven second" statement by showing what was happening during that period. Please understand that I had no intention to make you feel like it was a put down. I apologize if I came across that way.

I agree that the startup process should be part of the CDI for everyone regardless of experience. I suspect that the dealer tech doesn't know about it either or just takes it for granted. During my CDI I asked where the check engine light is and was told it would appear as words on the light bar. No mention of an actual red lighted engine icon and alarms.

[tnrzryd]

Just in case new owners don't know about this, I found a packet in the front right overhead cabinet that contained a booklet about Florida lemon laws and a CD from Spartan. On the CD are 21 documents covering various parts of the spartan chassis. It was in these docs that I found the light bar information.

[DSL417]

No offense taken in any way...I do feel a little dumb...many years ago I worked around diesels, but not this much electronics in those trucks...sent PM, but I can't find the users guide you refer to in the Owner's Packet. The lack of communications about the startup process and then further about other aspects of service communication, understanding integration and problem solving processes is a likely topic of discussion early next week. I need to be convinced about a couple of things, including the lack of a couple of promised phone calls from techs. Folks like Joyce can't do it all, particularly when they are on a plane.

[DSL417]

By the way, since there is a Florida "Lemon Law" booklet "provided" along with the CD, the booklet includes a form that the receiver of the booklet is to sign acknowledging receipt of said booklet, "Consumer Guide to the Florida Lemon Law". I don't know whether to laugh or ... since I don't cry, roll on the floor LMAO.

[DSL417]

Originally Posted by tnrzryd

Just in case new owners don't know about this, I found a packet in the front right overhead cabinet that contained a booklet about Florida lemon laws and a CD from Spartan. On the CD are 21 documents covering various parts of the spartan chassis. It was in these docs that I found the light bar information.

And in the Operations section it describes the "Wait to Start" light, that basically stays on till the electrical bus runs through all the checks. Sure wished I'd read this manual 60 days ago. Will be mentioning this to Entegra to be made a part of the CDI (or as they call it, "Delivery Checklist"). Read through the entire manual this AM. Definitely stuff in there you likely didn't get during your CDI, that is need to know, for newbies like me and the more experienced new Entegra and more importantly Spartan owners.

[TerryO]

I always assumed the wait to start indicator was for the glow plugs to heat up. Every diesel I own has that from my power stroke to backhoes.

[DSL417]

Not sure what that means, but if it means giving the engine and electrical systems the opportunity to "wake up" then that is a good thing

40 years since I previously dealt with diesel engines...never heard the terminology.

[Cruzer]

The initial wait is different than the intake manifold heater (called glow plugs in error quite often). The manifold heater is on any diesel and you wait before starting a cold engine to preheat the incoming intake air.

When you have a vehicle with multiplexed wiring you need to allow a few seconds for the system to boot up and initialize itself. If you quickly switvh the key on and try to crank it won't start, even with a warm engine. Older, non-multiplexed systems don't have that delay.

[hogdriver]

Like DSL417 I am having start problems. I have a 2013 Aspire DEQ on the same chassis, same engine, and similar assembly dates as DSL417. My RV has either had a drain on the chassis batteries or a turn the ignition switch and no start since the first week. I am aware of the "wait to start" light system but my 90 day old RV is undependable starting. I stored it 8 days ago, with the battery kill switch off and everything I could find off. Eight days later a dead chassis battery and no start. Battery boost would not work. I have it charging now for my trip to Cummins/Spartan repair tommorrow. I suppose some would say why not leave it charging all the time but it shouldn't operate this way. I am not griping, I am trying to work the problem and stating the facts. The facts are there is something miswired or a parasite drain on the chassis bus. I do not think 8 days is a long time to park an RV (unplugged). I am working daily with Entegra and Spartan but it is consuming a lot of my time and several hundred dollars each time in fuel to take it for repair. My wife is exasperated and ready to call Entegra and tell them to take the coach back. We have discussed lemon laws but I must let the dealerships and the factory have their opportunities to remedy the problem. My clunky old Monaco Diplomat had less problems.

The reason I bought Entegra over Monaco, Tiffin and Newmar was their quality reputation. I think Entegra needs to step it up a notch and fix this issue. So far I have had many sympathetic phone calls but now is the time for action from the factory. I know it is not a Newell, but a lot of people read these blogs. I love the appearance, the woodwork, the interior quality, the ride, the way the box is put together.

I am not mad.....yet, but I am disappointed in my new RV being very undependable to start and I hope Entegra reads this blog. My RV is less dependable riight now than my 30 year old car I had in high school. Of course I could spend $1000.00 in diesel and drive it to Middlebury, IN to get it right but I don't know why several owners are having the same problem at the same time??I hope Cummins finds a simple fix, but right now my wife and I are reluctant to take the RV anywhere for fear it'll strand us. I am very mechanically minded. I was an RV mechanic in college and I am a Mechanical Engineer but my family is disappointed every time we go out I have to break out my toolbox and meters.

I also agree the PDI checklist was childish. Entegra-Ask the owners to submit what newbies really need to know, your YouTube videos are a step in the right direction. I think there was one item about the engine and chassis and I think the Spartan manuals in multiple folders on a CD-Rom was something like I get with my Chinese manufactured lawn mower. Entegra, Cummins and Spartan need to have a "beer summit". I'll buy the first round.

Fix the problem Entegra!

[DSL417]

Originally Posted by hogdriver

Like DSL417 I am having start problems. I have a 2013 Aspire DEQ on the same chassis, same engine, and similar assembly dates as DSL417. My RV has either had a drain on the chassis batteries or a turn the ignition switch and no start since the first week. I am aware of the "wait to start" light system but my 90 day old RV is undependable starting. I stored it 8 days ago, with the battery kill switch off and everything I could find off. Eight days later a dead chassis battery and no start. Battery boost would not work. I have it charging now for my trip to Cummins/Spartan repair tommorrow. I suppose some would say why not leave it charging all the time but it shouldn't operate this way. I am not griping, I am trying to work the problem and stating the facts. The facts are there is something miswired or a parasite drain on the chassis bus. I do not think 8 days is a long time to park an RV (unplugged). I am working daily with Entegra and Spartan but it is consuming a lot of my time and several hundred dollars each time in fuel to take it for repair. My wife is exasperated and ready to call Entegra and tell them to take the coach back. We have discussed lemon laws but I must let the dealerships and the factory have their opportunities to remedy the problem. My clunky old Monaco Diplomat had less problems.

The reason I bought Entegra over Monaco, Tiffin and Newmar was their quality reputation. I think Entegra needs to step it up a notch and fix this issue. So far I have had many sympathetic phone calls but now is the time for action from the factory. I know it is not a Newell, but a lot of people read these blogs. I love the appearance, the woodwork, the interior quality, the ride, the way the box is put together.

I am not mad.....yet, but I am disappointed in my new RV being very undependable to start and I hope Entegra reads this blog. My RV is less dependable riight now than my 30 year old car I had in high school. Of course I could spend $1000.00 in diesel and drive it to Middlebury, IN to get it right but I don't know why several owners are having the same problem at the same time??I hope Cummins finds a simple fix, but right now my wife and I are reluctant to take the RV anywhere for fear it'll strand us. I am very mechanically minded. I was an RV mechanic in college and I am a Mechanical Engineer but my family is disappointed every time we go out I have to break out my toolbox and meters.

I also agree the PDI checklist was childish. Entegra-Ask the owners to submit what newbies really need to know, your YouTube videos are a step in the right direction. I think there was one item about the engine and chassis and I think the Spartan manuals in multiple folders on a CD-Rom was something like I get with my Chinese manufactured lawn mower. Entegra, Cummins and Spartan need to have a "beer summit". I'll buy the first round.

Fix the problem Entegra!

Keep the chin up Dave..we're going to get this worked through.

We've got great coaches that just have a pesky issue. Might mention to the Cummings folks that the issue may be one of the ECM internal batteries has something draining it (loose connection or short). The CAT guys here think that may be it.

Good luck.

[bobmac]

Have a friend with a new Winnebago tag with the ISL that he took delivery of in late Jan. He had an "intermittent/irregular" starting problem that was caused by a defective starter motor. He was told that many others have had the same issue. Replaced with a new starter and all is OK.