Lithium 12v batteries

[757driver]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Or you could verify for yourself if you have a RC remote as I have with my ARC. Plug BTS in and see if float goes up in these winter temps, un-plug and see if it goes back to 13.6 it will be immediately obvious.

Guess you're going to make me do a diff on the packets the remote sends to the inverter on LFP vs Custom to make sure I didn't miss a please charge LFP batteries correctly/incorrectly setting.

Truth be told I wish the Magnum had a temp compensation setting that could be adjusted like Victron, but it simply doesn't exist in the protocol unfortunately, if it is there I haven't seen it and the remote has no UI to change it.

I no longer have a BTS available on either inverter. They were cut and discarded when I moved the battery bank to a temperature controlled environment.

When it comes to charging lithium batteries you do what ever you like and charge them as you see fit.

[brobox]

Just talked with a 20 London Aire owner that installed 3 of these with no modifications to his Silver Leaf, same as the Vega Touch. He said they have the built in temp sensors that others have talked about. He said they are charging fine. With the Silver Leaf set at 14.7 absorb and 13.6 float. https://www.amazon.com/LOSSIGY-LiFeP...7-eb60747b8daf


Posting this for comments if they will work for others wanting to switch to Lithium?

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by brobox

Just talked with a 20 London Aire owner that installed 3 of these with no modifications to his Silver Leaf, same as the Vega Touch. He said they have the built in temp sensors that others have talked about. He said they are charging fine. With the Silver Leaf set at 14.7 absorb and 13.6 float.

They seem to have decent quality and a high temp cut out but no low temp charge protection which I would avoid, if you accidentally charge them below freezing you risk permanent damage.

Temp probe on the remote is a convenience to keep an eye on battery, low temp protection is a must unless you are absolutely sure you will not attempt charging below freezing.

Main issue I ran into with Firefly and Magnum and custom profile with lithiums is the 12.1v hard coded re-bulk voltage it would rarely go into bulk unless you really ran down the batteries and the firefly had no control for manual bulk either like a Magnum remote. If firefly added the LFP profile from Magnum it would raise re-bulk to 12.8v which works much better, also no need to disconnect temp probe which you must do otherwise to hold correct voltage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EACPGGVOMGM

[Gary.Jones]

The concerns itemized by JHarrell are exactly the same issues that I have heard directly from people that I respect as knowing as much as anyone alive (excluding so called Lithium experts who sell/install the systems) about using Lithium. Time will tell.

Gary

[brobox]

Originally Posted by jharrell

They seem to have decent quality and a high temp cut out but no low temp charge protection which I would avoid, if you accidentally charge them below freezing you risk permanent damage.

Temp probe on the remote is a convenience to keep an eye on battery, low temp protection is a must unless you are absolutely sure you will not attempt charging below freezing.

Main issue I ran into with Firefly and Magnum and custom profile with lithiums is the 12.1v hard coded re-bulk voltage it would rarely go into bulk unless you really ran down the batteries and the firefly had no control for manual bulk either like a Magnum remote. If firefly added the LFP profile from Magnum it would raise re-bulk to 12.8v which works much better, also no need to disconnect temp probe which you must do otherwise to hold correct voltage.

Good video and explanation. I wonder how many are getting incorrect information. These batteries were suggested by a dealer in CA. Like FL dealers, I guess they are not too concerned about below freezing charging in their marketing areas. Thanks for the advise, I learned something.

[dlmorris]

No need to wonder how many are getting less than accurate information on lithium battery conversion. I spent 2 years being misinformed by virtually every battery peddler in the country before finally studying the details and identifying the few who actually knew what they were doing. Battery freeze protection is serious. Floridian types who think it doesn’t matter are obviously hoping that when time to sell comes along, the buyer doesn’t plan on ever traveling where temperatures drop below freezing. Lithium will deliver power below freezing (but not below -4F). Lithium will not “accept” a charge however below freezing. Think it through folk. You’re below freezing and consuming every volt your batteries have without a way to recharge them till springtime. Battery heating is a must (even when in storage if you plan on any use at all).

[brobox]

Originally Posted by dlmorris

No need to wonder how many are getting less than accurate information on lithium battery conversion. I spent 2 years being misinformed by virtually every battery peddler in the country before finally studying the details and identifying the few who actually knew what they were doing. Battery freeze protection is serious. Floridian types who think it doesn’t matter are obviously hoping that when time to sell comes along, the buyer doesn’t plan on ever traveling where temperatures drop below freezing. Lithium will deliver power below freezing (but not below -4F). Lithium will not “accept” a charge however below freezing. Think it through folk. You’re below freezing and consuming every volt your batteries have without a way to recharge them till springtime. Battery heating is a must (even when in storage if you plan on any use at all).

Interesting point. Lithium battery are not in my needs at all. I don't spend long weekends at the race track, etc. But for those that do and have need for lithium, it is an easy thing to disclose on resale. The new buy could be really glad they are there. He could have a heated garage if up north, be a southern buyer, or decide he does not want the hassle of Lithium. If I had a need for Lithium, and I do live in FL, I would not let freezing temperatures stop me from switching to Lithium for my current needs. Nice thing about Entegra, they do have heated basements.

I've always heard Lithium's we so much more in cost. Four of these batteries equal 800 amps are $2,400 at your door. I spent more than that for FallRiver AGM 800 amps to my door. It would be great if FireFly knew how to program for Lithium, it would be a no brainier what batteries to replace with. I could buy a lot of basement heat for the difference, if needed. Now I wish I would have done a little more research before I replaced my cheap OEM batteries.

[MRUSA14]

Originally Posted by dlmorris

No need to wonder how many are getting less than accurate information on lithium battery conversion. I spent 2 years being misinformed by virtually every battery peddler in the country before finally studying the details and identifying the few who actually knew what they were doing. Battery freeze protection is serious. Floridian types who think it doesn’t matter are obviously hoping that when time to sell comes along, the buyer doesn’t plan on ever traveling where temperatures drop below freezing. Lithium will deliver power below freezing (but not below -4F). Lithium will not “accept” a charge however below freezing. Think it through folk. You’re below freezing and consuming every volt your batteries have without a way to recharge them till springtime. Battery heating is a must (even when in storage if you plan on any use at all).

The proper BMS will have a low temp cutoff to block charging at temps below freezing. In that case I don’t see a huge problem there for Entegra coaches which have the batteries located in the heated basement. If temperature is below freezing, start the generator, then the aquahot, which will rapidly warm the basement and batteries to above freezing whereupon they will charge. In other words, the coach already has a battery heating system.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by brobox

If I had a need for Lithium, and I do live in FL, I would not let freezing temperatures stop me from switching to Lithium for my current needs. Nice thing about Entegra, they do have heated basements.

It is true if you camp more in the south its not too much of concern, I still recommend getting ones with freeze protection just so they don't get ruined by accident, but I have yet to hit it in practice even camping in 20F weather with them in the unheated battery compartment. If you put them in heated space or get heat pads (which I may do) it's not an issue.

You have to watch the surge ratings on the BMS's mainly around starting your generator, I decided to move my generator over to chassis starting batteries just to avoid tripping them. With a large enough parallel bank it won't be an issue, on my gas MH it started the gen no problem. Honestly it makes more sense to start generator from chassis anyway to me.

I don't boondock much but when my Lifeline AGM's finally went in my last MH I wanted to try LFP and I do like them much better but there is a learning curve and a lot of little details that are different. Their ability to hold voltage even under load is really nice and their ability to bulk recharge back to full is really nice when using gen to charge them. If taken care of they should last 10-15 years , this will probably be the only set of batteries I put in this RV and they were two years old already.

I went with SOK batteries based on various teardown and reviews not as expensive as Battleborn (which are top notch), but still very well built, serviceable, and freeze protection etc.

I do believe this is the future of Rv batteries, they will just come with a bank from the factory and you will never have to change them for the life of the RV if they are managed and insulated properly.

Here is my 400AH bank, its about half the size and weight of the 400AH lead bank with much more useable capacity:

[MRUSA14]

The big concern referenced here seems to be the lack of lithium-friendly settings on Vegatouch. Would it be practical to disconnect Vegatouch from the inverter(s) and install a Magnum remote (ME-RC or ME-ARC) controller instead? These Magnum remotes have LFP lithium battery profiles, plus the ability to create custom charging profiles.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

The big concern referenced here seems to be the lack of lithium-friendly settings on Vegatouch. Would it be practical to disconnect Vegatouch from the inverter(s) and install a Magnum remote (ME-RC or ME-ARC) controller instead? These Magnum remotes have LFP lithium battery profiles, plus the ability to create custom charging profiles.

Yes thats exactly what I did, main issue is you lose monitoring on the Vega touch, if you can run the remote to somewhere inside you can just use that, I didn't feel like doing that so I just mounted it near inverter, I have a separate system I wrote to monitor it from a web page.

voltdoc has said that you can plug both in at the same time and the remote setting are dominant allowing you to still monitor from Vega touch, I have not tried this yet.

Note that you need both a "L" remote and "L" inverter for the lithium profile to work, if your inverter was made before 2021 or so it won't understand a lithium profile from the remote and you will have to use custom or CC/CV charge profile.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

The big concern referenced here seems to be the lack of lithium-friendly settings on Vegatouch. Would it be practical to disconnect Vegatouch from the inverter(s) and install a Magnum remote (ME-RC or ME-ARC) controller instead? These Magnum remotes have LFP lithium battery profiles, plus the ability to create custom charging profiles.

Marc, after spending hours with Firefly on the Vega Touch charging issues a few months ago, it would be easy for Firefly to make the needed changes. As soon as Entegra sees that Lithium batteries cost less than AGM's, that will happen over night.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by brobox

Marc, after spending hours with Firefly on the Vega Touch charging issues a few months ago, it would be easy for Firefly to make the needed changes.

Yes its very easy, if they sent a 3 for battery type then the Magnum would use LFP profile, not sure why this wasn't added as soon as Magnum added the LFP profile, it doesn't get much easier, here is RVC spec, Firefly is just missing 3:

[brobox]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Yes its very easy, if they sent a 3 for battery type then the Magnum would use LFP profile, not sure why this wasn't added as soon as Magnum added the LFP profile, it doesn't get much easier, here is RVC spec, Firefly is just missing 3:

Attachment 386253

It make no sense that it is being left out. However I believe that will be short lived as soon as Entegra sees the price saving now that Lithium are becoming lower in price.