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Old 12-29-2017, 10:27 AM   #43
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Was there any salvage value to your old batteries or did you have to pay for disposal?
Dave,

Good question. At least some of my original batteries were quickly going south. After seeing the way things were wired on the back wall of the battery compartment I am quite sure the bottom rack was in good shape and the top rack was suffering.

I took them to a battery retailer in Yuma and got $131.00 for the weight of the scrap lead.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Victory Blue
Congratulations, Don. This puts all of my mods to shame.

Now that you’re off to greener pastures I hope we don’t all have to find a new battery guru.

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Not at all Bill, I am still here for everyone.
I don't know Don..... but I keep looking at the plane on your windshield sun shade and I'm thinking that if you could figure out a way to strap a pair of wings on that energy independent Anthem we might not see you for quite some time..!
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:56 PM   #45
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bust my bubble

Here I was feeling pretty sporty with a full rack of 8 new Lifeline AGM's and then I read your post. Really took the wind out of my sails...

Nice setup and nice job. The LifeLines and the battery monitor are working well BTW. No comparison to the OEM battery pack. Not lithium but much better than it was.

BTW, I ran small sense wires to the cabin and used a digital volt meter to monitor the positive terminal voltage on the bottom and top shelf. I, too, was bothered by the seemingly uneven hookup of the top and bottom shelf with the 3 positive cables. For the past two weeks driving, 4 nights boon docking, charging with the generator, charging off the Cummins generator, and plugged into shore power I have never seen any voltage difference between the top shelf and the bottom shelf. Surprised me but I gave up on the idea of adding a redundant cable to tie the top shelf and bottom shelf 12 volt positives in parallel.

thanks for all the help, Don!
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:17 PM   #46
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Here I was feeling pretty sporty with a full rack of 8 new Lifeline AGM's and then I read your post. Really took the wind out of my sails...

Nice setup and nice job. The LifeLines and the battery monitor are working well BTW. No comparison to the OEM battery pack. Not lithium but much better than it was.

BTW, I ran small sense wires to the cabin and used a digital volt meter to monitor the positive terminal voltage on the bottom and top shelf. I, too, was bothered by the seemingly uneven hookup of the top and bottom shelf with the 3 positive cables. For the past two weeks driving, 4 nights boon docking, charging with the generator, charging off the Cummins generator, and plugged into shore power I have never seen any voltage difference between the top shelf and the bottom shelf. Surprised me but I gave up on the idea of adding a redundant cable to tie the top shelf and bottom shelf 12 volt positives in parallel.

thanks for all the help, Don!
Al,

If you don’t mind try the voltage test between the top and bottom shelf unplugged from shore, inverters off and all interior 12v lights on and see what it gives you.
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:40 PM   #47
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Initial impressions

The macerator toilet (when flushed) does not dim the 12v lights nearly as much as before the rewire. Only slightly noticeable now. Probably the result of shortening the 2 gauge wire to the Bigboy relay from the batteries by 15’.

When on battery power making a cup of coffee in the Keurig does not result in nearly as much voltage drop (as indicated on the inverter remote panel) as before the upgrade/rewire. With 2 of the new batteries in the old location (one on each tray) the voltage would drop to 11.7v when Keurig turned on. After the move and all 4 batteries hooked up the voltage only drops to 12.8v. Lithium batteries are probably part of the difference but the biggest difference is shortening the inverter to battery run by 12’ and upgrading from 3/0 to 4/0 cable.

Going by LifeBlue’s definition of a life cycle I could park it in the desert full time and only use 1 life cycle every two days or 180 cycles a year. With a life expectancy of 2800+ cycles these lithium batteries should last me over 15 years. Time will tell.
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:10 PM   #48
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Going by LifeBlue’s definition of a life cycle I could park it in the desert full time and only use 1 life cycle every two days or 180 cycles a year. With a life expectancy of 2800+ cycles these lithium batteries should last me over 15 years. Time will tell.
That's what I am hoping for too, at that point it's worth the heavy up front cost. I have to figure out which 3 batteries I'm going to get 150, 200 or 300. I'm looking for a day and half before recharge on genny.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:47 AM   #49
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So, what ARE your plans Don? You intending to live off the grid in Quartzsite, grow a very long beard, buy a “blue boy”, and store rain in a cistern when it rains every other month? What are the plans? 😊

Gary
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Old 01-01-2018, 11:50 AM   #50
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So, what ARE your plans Don? You intending to live off the grid in Quartzsite, grow a very long beard, buy a “blue boy”, and store rain in a cistern when it rains every other month? What are the plans? 😊

Gary
Oh oh, I did realize I had gone that far, I already have a blue boy!!! When it rains, as well as storing rain water in a cistern we will be rolling around in the washes with a bar of soap to shower.
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Old 01-01-2018, 11:55 AM   #51
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I wanna be there with a camera to take that all in.... :-)

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Old 01-01-2018, 01:14 PM   #52
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Al,

If you don’t mind try the voltage test between the top and bottom shelf unplugged from shore, inverters off and all interior 12v lights on and see what it gives you.
No difference. Just sitting inside in the rain so I just tried it. I'm looking at delta voltage between the top and bottom so I don't know the absolute voltage value without going out in the 49 degree rain again and moving some clips around.....

I also looked at flushing the macerator as you mentioned and there is no difference even though the 12volt lights do flicker a tiny bit. All my 12volts are LED's so they aren't pulling a lot although I hit the full house lights for the check.

Same with the coffee maker on batteries.

It must be the dramatically reduced wire run which seems perfectly logical. the schematics i got from Entegra show the only link between the top and bottom tray is at the inverters which is quite a bit of wire from each tray which I would think is doubled in length coming and going when looking at the positive voltage delta at the positive posts in parallel. Surprised me but I've been checking the VOM as often as I think about it for the past two weeks and I've never seen more than a token +/_ 0.02 volt difference flicker from zero on a transient load shift or from load to charge. I have several 4/0 cables made up and riding in the battery tray that I was ready to add between the trays but see no reason to at this point.
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:14 AM   #53
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Lifeblue batteries

I am finding different information from everyone. This does not instill confidence. From what I can ascertain, LI batteries in pre-made drop in format want to be charged to close to 14.7v. Once they reach that state of charge, the charger needs to quickly drop down to about 13.6v. Therefore, one does not require a 3-8 stage, fancy charger like is good for lead acid batteries. A 2 stage charger is what is required. Problem is, the charger manufacturers have not come up with a charger that does this. I am told that once the battery reaches 14.7, it needs the charge to drop to 13.6 ASAP. The chargers I find that are two stage and hit those numbers take between 8-24 hours at 14.7 to drop to 13.6. I’m am told this will decrease the life of the LI battery. In addition, a cut off switch needs to be installed on the isolator circuit to be able to cut off the charge coming from the alternator. The alternator will over charge the battery if is full and you drive for a few hours. This is not a particularly hard thing to install but, no one tells you this. I also have read that is if the battery is low, the draw on the alternator can damage the alternator.
Now, everybody tells me something different. Even companies who make “LI compatible chargers”. Progressive Dynamics makes LI chargers both drop in replacements for the converter/charger and Stand alone chargers. They charge to 14.7 then just continually stay there! It’s like the LI battery manufacturers don’t communicate with the LI charger manufacturers.
If I had better information, I would have already installed LI batteries and chargers. This whole thing seems to be in its infancy at this point.
Not finding anyone coming forward with real life reports having used these drop ins makes me lean toward going back to a 210ah Lifeline AGM.
Has anyone else found these discrepancies when looking at LI batteries?
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:31 PM   #54
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I am finding different information from everyone. This does not instill confidence. From what I can ascertain, LI batteries in pre-made drop in format want to be charged to close to 14.7v. Once they reach that state of charge, the charger needs to quickly drop down to about 13.6v. Therefore, one does not require a 3-8 stage, fancy charger like is good for lead acid batteries. A 2 stage charger is what is required. Problem is, the charger manufacturers have not come up with a charger that does this. I am told that once the battery reaches 14.7, it needs the charge to drop to 13.6 ASAP. The chargers I find that are two stage and hit those numbers take between 8-24 hours at 14.7 to drop to 13.6. I’m am told this will decrease the life of the LI battery. In addition, a cut off switch needs to be installed on the isolator circuit to be able to cut off the charge coming from the alternator. The alternator will over charge the battery if is full and you drive for a few hours. This is not a particularly hard thing to install but, no one tells you this. I also have read that is if the battery is low, the draw on the alternator can damage the alternator.
Now, everybody tells me something different. Even companies who make “LI compatible chargers”. Progressive Dynamics makes LI chargers both drop in replacements for the converter/charger and Stand alone chargers. They charge to 14.7 then just continually stay there! It’s like the LI battery manufacturers don’t communicate with the LI charger manufacturers.
If I had better information, I would have already installed LI batteries and chargers. This whole thing seems to be in its infancy at this point.
Not finding anyone coming forward with real life reports having used these drop ins makes me lean toward going back to a 210ah Lifeline AGM.
Has anyone else found these discrepancies when looking at LI batteries?
I agree, there is a lot of bad information out there. A good 3 stage charger where you can set the voltages where you want for each stage and control the Absorb time is about as good as you are going to see. Knowing what the actual voltage at the batteries are as compared to the charger remote voltage readout is also critical so as not to overcharge the batteries. Once a lithium battery hits 3.5-3.6 vpc the voltage will ramp up very quickly if left unchecked. I can set my Absorb to 14.5 and the time to 6 minutes before dropping to Float. Keeping a lithium battery at 3.675 vpc or higher (in the upper knee) is very bad for longevity. Keeping a lithium battery fully charged and leaving it there is also not good for battery longevity. As with others I have yet to see a company that supposedly makes a charger with a lithium setting that knows what they are doing.

Depending on how your battery management system works a alternator cut off might be essential to prevent overcharging and/or destroying your alternator. With how mine works I will probably never see the alternator charge my house batteries.

Having a battery monitor for measuring SOC is almost essential with lithium because the discharge line is so flat you cannot go by voltage to determine SOC or when to recharge.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:57 PM   #55
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Honeyboy,

Agreed there is a bunch of bad information out there, especially on the internet, which is why I'd rather speak with people who are interested in this technology personally. So feel free to PM me and I’ll get back to you.

Yes I experienced exactly the same problem with the Cell Mfr’s info vs. the Charger Mfr’s info. Although we did not go the drop in route the issues are the same.

Lifepo4 technology is not in its infancy, but applying it to an RV is uncommon and there is not a central place to go for all the answers. The best way is to talk with people who are currently using the technology. The solutions are there, but can be frustrating to find.

I will be glad explain how we solved the “problems”, but don’t wish to hijack this tread. So PM.
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:49 PM   #56
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Don - I've resisted posting, as I wanted let this thread simmer and see if anyone else responded with my thoughts. And yes, several have hit one of my key thoughts - but missing my secondary one...

Key Thoughts:
-Thanks for sharing
-Informative, and appreciated the details along with the pictures
-Not surprised that Batteryrp/Larry/Starlight Solar - provided you with good support
-Power envy

Secondary Thought
-Posters that post since enticing posts, should be held accountable. I believe that IRV2 should provide a 'Go Fund This Project' fast Click-on. This way when above average members, Don, posts such enticing threads - we that read them can Click the Go Fund This Project button, and the Poster's on file bank account will automatically be debited for the amount required.

Yep, a bit of tough love on this one. As I love what you've done, but want to be tough in helping you accept the financial ramifications of your post.

----

Don - All kidding aside, great job!!! Will follow as you shake out any teething pains... Best to you, and all,
Smitty - SOB!
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