New information on the DEF head issue

[Gary.Jones]

I am relieved to see that we are finally discussing responsibility and where it lies, and opportunity to get this problem resolved. It has been obvious for a long time that the fault and responsibility lies equally with three or four different participants. Most directly is Shaw industries and their lousy engineering department. But almost equal to Shaw is both Spartan for not finding a unit that resolves the problem and converting their chassis to a system that works, and simultaneously, admits the problem and makes amends, IMO, by announcing that Spartan stands behind all of their chassis and will stand behind the DEF Head they chose to use on their chassis for a reasonable life span of a good unit (maybe 10 years). I said Entegra, because Entegra seems to not be advocating for their customers who bought what should be a reliable coach and yet are put in the position of not being able to use their coach without the large possibility of the owner's being stranded and unable to use their coach, which is the reason that they bought it in the first place. And there is one more group that is involved and has not taken its own share of responsibility and that is the group of Entegra dealers. If I owned a company that was the middle-man in a transaction between myself and my customers that usually involved roughly $400,000 to $500,000 and be on the front lines for a ear full of unhappiness from their customers who are not able to use their coaches with only the normal amount of anxiety about the coach not working and being stranded, I think that the dealers have a lot of skin in the game also. Shaw, Spartan, Entegra, and dealers of the product should be all held responsible, and conversely, be demanding that their customers be made "whole.

We "owners" already assume tons of financial responsibility for these coaches we buy, but when there is a known failure which questions the normal use of the product, and no one is stepping up to assume responsibility and make the owner whole, then the world is in a very bad place.

I, and others, have suggested ways to deal with this problem, both at the manufacturing level and at the warranty level, and what is most astounding is that no group has grabbed the bull by the horns and forced something to happen. Now, what will force one of these groups to stand up and take responsibility is if owners vote with their future purchasing decisions. I. personally, am furious, and I get more furious every week that this situation sits here with no one resolution.... no meaningful communication, no reasonable solution. It is simply not acceptable. Owners, don't ever forget how this is being handled. I already remember how the radiator fiasco was handled. I certainly won't.

Gary

[New2road]

IMHO, this only gets resolved when Spartan's customer base (are you listening here Entegra) begins discussions with Freightliner to build chassis to replace Spartan and gets the multitude of lawyers they employ focused on voiding their supply contracts for failure to deliver a quality product. The incredible volume of impacted customers, with pass through charges to support towing/ repairs/ trip interruptions etc. should provide sufficient evidence of inferior quality.

[brobox]

Gary, Pat Bauer originator of this post and well connected being the President of the Entegra Owners Assoc. Did an outstanding job to get people to a safe location with the failing coaches and what has been proven to work without any internet fixes.
With Pat's connections, I hope we can start seeing some reports from the inside of what is being done, if anything. If not, Karen as admired American Coaches every time she sees one in an RV Park or on the road.

[GCSuper]

Can, in an emergency situation, a Freightliner DEF head assembly be installed in place of the Shaw made unit ? I'm guessing the computers might not be able to communicate if the language is different.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by GCSuper

Can, in an emergency situation, a Freightliner DEF head assembly be installed in place of the Shaw made unit ? I'm guessing the computers might not be able to communicate if the language is different.

I’m just going to vote “highly unlikely” on this one. It would make too much sense.

[Archer2]

Actually it might work. Every DEF system manufacturer is free to design anything they want in the way of *how* they measure DEF temperature, level and purity but they must connect to the Chassis data network using a particular protocol and output the data to that network formatted in a very specific way. The specifications are written by the SAE and published as J1939. J1939 specifies how every device and system are to communicate to the Cummins (or any other manufacture's)engine. In the case of the DEF sensor it requires that the sensor send a message once per second containing PGN 64923 which contains SPN3516 (DEF concentration) an SPN3521 (DEF property-is it DEF or water or diesel) then it outputs PGN 65110 which contains SPN1761 (DEF tank level) and SPN3031 (DEF tank temperature).
There is a chance that the ECM might query the sensor for its manufacturer number and so forth but it’s not likely. If I was stranded with no Shaw replacement in sight I’d plug a Freightliner DEF sensor into the CANBUS and see what happens.

[redbaron73]

Originally Posted by Archer2

Actually it might work. Every DEF system manufacturer is free to design anything they want in the way of *how* they measure DEF temperature, level and purity but they must connect to the Chassis data network using a particular protocol and output the data to that network formatted in a very specific way. The specifications are written by the SAE and published as J1939. J1939 specifies how every device and system are to communicate to the Cummins (or any other manufacture's)engine. In the case of the DEF sensor it requires that the sensor send a message once per second containing PGN 64923 which contains SPN3516 (DEF concentration) an SPN3521 (DEF property-is it DEF or water or diesel) then it outputs PGN 65110 which contains SPN1761 (DEF tank level) and SPN3031 (DEF tank temperature).
There is a chance that the ECM might query the sensor for its manufacturer number and so forth but it’s not likely. If I was stranded with no Shaw replacement in sight I’d plug a Freightliner DEF sensor into the CANBUS and see what happens.

How about an emergency device to plug in place of failed def, that reports the data expected. This would be a way to keep us on the road while waiting for a working unit.


Might be a project worthy of investigation.

[Ljwt330]

Originally Posted by Archer2

Actually it might work. Every DEF system manufacturer is free to design anything they want in the way of *how* they measure DEF temperature, level and purity but they must connect to the Chassis data network using a particular protocol and output the data to that network formatted in a very specific way. The specifications are written by the SAE and published as J1939. J1939 specifies how every device and system are to communicate to the Cummins (or any other manufacture's)engine. In the case of the DEF sensor it requires that the sensor send a message once per second containing PGN 64923 which contains SPN3516 (DEF concentration) an SPN3521 (DEF property-is it DEF or water or diesel) then it outputs PGN 65110 which contains SPN1761 (DEF tank level) and SPN3031 (DEF tank temperature).
There is a chance that the ECM might query the sensor for its manufacturer number and so forth but it’s not likely. If I was stranded with no Shaw replacement in sight I’d plug a Freightliner DEF sensor into the CANBUS and see what happens.

My question would be, can a Freightliner head physically fit into a Spartan DEF tank and make all the same connections, other than the data connector?

[Archer2]

The connections are 2 engine coolant (really heater hoses) and a DEF fluid suction and return line (suction line goes to the DEF pump that supplies the injector nozzle and return is the excess fluid that was not used for injection but used to cool the sensor) and the 4-pin Deutsch connector provides CANBUS high and CANBUS low, +12Volts and ground.
The truth is that in a pinch the heater hoses could be just connected together and bypass the sensor head. Shouldn’t be a problem unless temps are -12F. The sensor assembly just needs to be immersed in the DEF fluid. It could be Duct taped into place on top of the tank if the mounting holes don’t line up. Yea gotta do what ya gotta do, right?

[MyRVButler]

Engine running while fueling is fine, its Diesel it won't ignite like Gasoline does in the case of an accident at the fuel island. Just use Rabbit Idle. Depending on the circumstance, I often leave RVs running at the island. Entertainer Coach drivers never shut engine down...EVER until arriving at destination and if its snowing, it just stays in high idle all night long (with a clear exhaust pipe exit ofcourse).

[VTAIL]

This might be a stupid question , but my understanding is that if have a DEF failure all I’ll see is a check engine light in my 2017 Entegra Anthem. All of this talk about error codes makes me think folks must have something to plug in to see the actual codes. Any recommendation on that? It seems it would be handy to have such a device. There is some kind of plug down left of the brake pedal. Is that where you plug in to see the error codes?

[puttin]

I didn't read this whole thread but what is the effect of disconnecting the speedometer sensor from the DEF tank?

[brobox]

Originally Posted by VTAIL

This might be a stupid question , but my understanding is that if have a DEF failure all I’ll see is a check engine light in my 2017 Entegra Anthem. All of this talk about error codes makes me think folks must have something to plug in to see the actual codes. Any recommendation on that? It seems it would be handy to have such a device. There is some kind of plug down left of the brake pedal. Is that where you plug in to see the error codes?

On your 17 push the buttons next to the LED screen until you get to "codes" or diagnosis, then the down button to read them. The codes for any CEL will be there.

[Steve1152]

I've been driving trucks for 41 yrs. I've been derated 2 times in 4 million miles. Is this a problem with newer engines? Biggest problem was with 2007-2010 pre def engines. Too much egr, filters clogged all the time lots of regens, a big disaster. Def engine do a lot better, hardly ever regen.