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Old 07-22-2021, 07:27 AM   #1
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Rettrobands and DEF

I know, how do they go hand in hand, right?

After reading Brett Davis's complete documentation regarding a tire blow out and what Rettrobands did https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/ret...ml#post5841487
This plaguing DEF sensor problem that many of us have spent hours researching. There are as many false internet statements posted as the hours spent gathering facts that the average person doesn't know what to believe

The DEF sensor problem has been going on for five years with seven attempts to throw parts at the problem.
After reading Brett's detailed factual statement, I started thinking, wouldn't it be nice if one of the powers that be regarding DEF sensors would publish a statement as open as Rettrobands of what is being done.
I know those in charge read these forums. Why can we not get answers to a problem that are ruining peoples trips that were planned a year ago? Some cannot even make it to manufactured sponsored rallies they signed up for months ago. A little transparency can go a long way as Brett Davis has done for his company.

So far the only publication made has been from Pat Bauer, President of the Entegra Coach Owners Assoc. (a social group) to try to help people prolong their mileage until de-rate to hopefully get owners to a safe place. Why have Entegra, Spartan, or Shaw Development not stepped up to try to help us out with factual publications instead of statement about why the delays. We understand the chip shortage....some testing data of how they are going to work would be much more beneficial. After lab testing, there has got to be reasons the other DEF sensors failed. Why will you not communicate with us, the end users? Please use Rettrobands as an example.
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Old 07-22-2021, 07:48 AM   #2
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Good post title. When I saw the title of this post I thought “Now I have to read this”.

I agree some honest and transparent facts and guidance from Spartan / Entegra would be very welcome on the DEF issue. Maybe the companies legal departments are advising against that but it would be helpful to customers.
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Old 07-22-2021, 07:57 AM   #3
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Chuck,
I believe the fact that none of the stakeholders have responded is due to the wheel of liability still being on fast spin. The in house legal teams are all still trying to minimize impacts on the individual companies and any potential Governmental investigations.

Spartan went with a bad horse, and now is scrambling. They don't have the resources that FL has and it is really showing up here.

Entegra went all in for Spartan, and now has little wiggle room. This is a spot where the parent company should be joining this division in applying pressure. I believe Entegra should issue their own Mea Culpa, explain their path forward. They sold the package, I get tired of hearing from them they don't resolve Spartan issues. I didn't buy anything from Spartan, they did. This isn't a supply chain issue anymore, this is an integrity issue. Who here has any confidence that the latest iteration will resolve this issue. What authoritative document provides us clarity on the history, efforts to resolve, assurance of success, and path forward to remedy this issue.

I believe they supported Pat's email as an attempt to mollify a growing base of pretty pissed of owners.

I also believe that if the full contingent of very unhappy owners started pinging political representatives and government agencies the heat would build up.

As Brett's data base becomes more available, and true performance and quality figures become visible there will be more pain coming for some outfits.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:02 AM   #4
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Chuck

You are missing the obvious issue in this case....

Retrobands and Robert and Brett had a problem. Brett acknowledged it and even without invoking warranty, he and Robert accepted responsibility, admitted a design flaw, made the commitment to not just replace the ones that fail, but to replace EVERY SET THEY HAD PREVIOUSLY SOLD with the newly engineered and designed product without that flaw, and that offer to replace stands. WOW..... how often do you see that????? Regardless of warranty wording. And how often do you read the "principles" of the company write about it and present that written document publicly for all to read...... ? Not often. Yet, that is exactly what was fair and needed to be done.

Now, lets compare that to the DEF head problem. For reasons I dont fully understand, Shaw Development has not yet come up with a design for the DEF head that fulfills every aspect of the Government mandate that must be monitored and kept within government dictated parameters. The failure of the DEF head can make use of a half million dollar product impossible and greatly increases the chances that the family that owns that half million dollar product to have to spend time beside an interstate, be towed by ??? towing company for ??? how many miles, then sit at a repair facility for ??? days. Worst of all was that owners were being told that there were no replacement parts/units and they would not become available for two or three months from the time of failure. That policy was changed, and owners who were already beside the road or stuck sitting at a repair facility for months were given a reprieve and they were being sent on a priority basis a replacement, but only those most desperately in need of the replacement. Even worse, none of the companies involved has publicly accepted any fault in this whole thing and the only written or verbal statements from the companies involved was largely a lawyerly drafted statement that said nothing. What would shut most of us up, is a statement that

1.) the companies involved understand their role in this problem,

2.) are doing whatever they can do to get it resolved,

3.) will replace all failures of any of these generations of DEF Heads for the useable life of a DEF head in normal use, maybe 10 years regardless of warranty, and

4.) apologize to all who have owned their product for the inconvenience that this has caused whether their DEF head has failed or not. This is not hard to understand.

Compare the two situations. There is no comparison. We got mature responsibility in the case of Retrobands, and we got "weasley" avoidance of responsibility for massive inconvenience in the case of DEF heads. Man up Shaw, Spartan, and Entegra, (and a long way behind those three) Dealers, and get it resolved and assume the financial responsibility that needs to be accepted. This is not hard.

Gary
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVFunlovers View Post
Good post title. When I saw the title of this post I thought “Now I have to read this”.

I agree some honest and transparent facts and guidance from Spartan / Entegra would be very welcome on the DEF issue. Maybe the companies legal departments are advising against that but it would be helpful to customers.
JMO communication can go a long way for reputations. I also thought yesterday of the poster on a cross country trip made it as far as Nashville. He loaded has family in his toad driving from Nashville back to AZ because of a failed DEF head and was told no replacements for 3-4 months. If this terrible experience happens to an Attorney with his family, I think the Action for the Class Action suit everyone keeps mentioning would have just been found. There are plenty of people for the Class, just the person or entity to be the Action needs to be found. The legal departments will really have something to give advise on then.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:29 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
What would shut most of us up, is a statement that 1,) the companies involved understand their role in this problem, 2.) are doing whatever they can do to get it resolved, 3.) will replace all failures of any of these generations of DEF Heads for the useable life of a DEF head in normal use, maybe 10 years regardless of warranty, and 4.) apologize to all who have owned their product for the inconvenience that this has caused whether their DEF head has failed or not. This is not hard to understand.

Compare the two situations. There is no comparison. We got mature responsibility in the case of Retrobands, and we got "weasley" avoidance of responsibility for massive inconvenience in the case of DEF heads. Man up Shaw, Spartan, and Entegra, (and a long way behind those three) Dealers, and get it resolved and assume the financial responsibility that needs to be accepted. This is not hard.

Gary
Gary, my point was transparency, not the mechanics. Brett did an outstanding job of showing what transparency was to answer one post made by one individual.

For five year we have had no transparency for those that have been stranded or lost thousand of dollars in canceled trip fees and the cost of coach ownership that cannot be used.

The last two paragraphs of your statement is the point I was trying to make. The time for excuses and buck passing has just about come to an end. If Pat Bauer can do a better job than Spartan, something is terrible wrong.

Here is another example of lack of transparency. This posted yesterday, apparently he did not know, nor did the technician know emergency DEF heads are available. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/def...ml#post5841093 You can tell by the number of post, he is not a regular as are 90% of the of the MH owners on the road. How are they to know until it's to late without transparency from Spartan?

I will continue my efforts with the NHTSA as that is all I know to do currently. If the hammer fails, and I hope it fails hard, for all of the people that have suffered both time wise and financially.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:44 AM   #7
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It was my post that Brett was responding to. I called BS on something that looked wrong to me and Brett was kind enough to respond. That's what it took. Someone had to call BS. (I wasn't even calling BS on the Rettrobands).



I did exactly what you're advocating for (and got the expected personal attacks to go with it). Despite that, I completely agree with you. Let's call BS on the DEF issue. All of us are louder than any one of us.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:34 AM   #8
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I just want to throw something out there. Hear me out OK? We can all agree that these problems started showing up with the 2016 or 2017 model year, right? So what happened around then? For one thing, Cummins introduced the new UL2 UREA dosing system. One of the “features” of the new system was that it changed the way the DEF injectors were cooled from using an engine coolant loop to USING DEF FLUID for cooling. That one change would result in DEF that has been heated to some elevated temp being constantly reintroduced into the DEF tank. I’m wondering whether that newly heated DEF in combination with other factors like the (also new in 2016) single-module aftertreatment system putting another high temp source closer to the DEF sensors and/or a failure of the DEF coolant valve allowing 200-ish degree coolant to flow thru the DEF head heating coil in 90 degree weather might be the reason for a sudden step-change increase in failures across all sensor manufacturers.
In other words it may be plausible that overtemp DEF fluid may be the proximate cause but how it got to that higher temp may have multiple potential causes.
Just food for thought
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:01 AM   #9
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Archer2

Your scenario seems to me to be a possibility. I am not knowledgeable enough to narrow the possibilities.

And I dont really care what the reason is at this point.... I just want a solution that makes owners whole (letting them travel, not deal with terrible break-down scenarios, etc. etc. etc.) Since there are other manufacturers that are apparently able to deal with the problems and limitations (e.g Freightley - Detroit - others????) yet not strand coaches and not provide routine service or replacements, to me the easiest way to deal with this situation is for those involved in this mess to negotiate a contract with the company that makes a functioning unit to start making a version that is compatible with the tanks/systems/installations that are having the problems (unless the good ones don't work either in our tanks/systems/installations (which if true, makes your point exactly! )).

Right now, your logic is as good as any other logic since the companies involved are sticking their heads in the ground and saying nothing meaningful.

Gary
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:06 AM   #10
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Archer2, your research along with others has been fantastic.

tom chelbana even cut a hole and installed a dryer vent forcing cooling air into his DEF tank compartment on a Newmar.
That was one of the main points of this post, why has Spartan or Entegra not put out a service bulletin on their product with lab reports like Rettrobands has done. I used Rettrobands as an example as it doesn't get anymore transparent from a company to customers than that.

We on iRV2 are sharing ideas, but we are probably less that 10% of the MH population. What are the others doing that are get stranded from lack of knowledge on a faulty product? They are not receiving any help in the form of communication.



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Old 07-22-2021, 10:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
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Archer2

Your scenario seems to me to be a possibility. I am not knowledgeable enough to narrow the possibilities.

And I dont really care what the reason is at this point.... I just want a solution that makes owners whole (letting them travel, not deal with terrible break-down scenarios, etc. etc. etc.) Since there are other manufacturers that are apparently able to deal with the problems and limitations (e.g Freightley - Detroit - others????) yet not strand coaches and not provide routine service or replacements, to me the easiest way to deal with this situation is for those involved in this mess to negotiate a contract with the company that makes a functioning unit to start making a version that is compatible with the tanks/systems/installations that are having the problems (unless the good ones don't work either in our tanks/systems/installations (which if true, makes your point exactly! )).

Right now, your logic is as good as any other logic since the companies involved are sticking their heads in the ground and saying nothing meaningful.

Gary
Hi Gary. My point is that the problem is not isolated to Spartan. It’s affecting Freightliner, Intenational, Tiffin not to mention the over the road, construction, off-highway,etc. industries.
It looks like just Entegra/Spartan because those owners are the ones posting here, so there’s selection bias inherent in our perceptions. I know there are efforts to find a patch but there’s no guarantee they will be successful. I’d still like to know why it happened. I do not believe it was bad engineering simultaneously at at least 3 sensor manufacturers that I have heard of.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:37 AM   #12
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I assume everyone reading this thread has also seen the notice that another owner posted that was carried in some media release, and that announced that Shaw Development has just announced its sale to another "what I think was described as a holding company".

That is a VERY INTERESTING ANNOUNCEMENT, if it is true..... and it is either very good or very bad news for owners. MY guess is not good news. My second guess is that this greatly increases the chances that some other company will step in and provide "DEF HEADs" that comply with government standards. Someone's legal department are already working overtime..... I am guessing.

I could easily be wrong on both..... I'm guessing. --

Gary
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Old 07-22-2021, 11:00 AM   #13
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That sale happened in 2020. It’s not a recent press release and I very much doubt that it had anything to do with this situation. Looked to me like the founders descendants wanted to cash out. Very common story in private equity deals.
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Old 07-23-2021, 12:27 AM   #14
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Get cash, limit liability. As they were already into Gen 4 or 5 by then, I'm sure the legal team provided a proper firewall to limit impact of what was coming.

I get Shaw baring the gates. I even get Spartan struggling with what to do. I don't understand Entegra failing to realize the potential impact of this on their future sales. We all know bad things happen. Most of us judge the event on the reply to the negative event. Vapor lock at the leadership level does not bode well for confidence in an organization.
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