Speaking of DEF heads

[Lasmck]

Some thoughts on DEF codes. Our head failure occurred on April 1. Between Spartan and a great Cummins shop in Tucson the failure to new head installed and back on the road was turned in 26 hours.

My failure codes were:
- SPN 1761 DEF Level, FMI 9 Abnormal update rate
- SPN 3031 DEF Temperature, FMI 9 Abnormal update rate
- SPN 3364 DEF Quality, FMI 9 Abnormal update rate
- SPN 520953 DEF Dosage Unit Relay Feedback, FMI 4 Voltage below normal or shorted to low source.

This was clearly a complete failure of the head and not a specific sensor failure (level sensor, temperature sensor or quality sensor). My theory is an electronics failure, specifically a serial communications chip/circuit (ref. The FMI 9 ‘abnormal update rate’). FMI is ‘Failure Mode Identifier’ used along with the SPN to provide specific information that relates to a diagnostic trouble code. The failure is not that there is too much or too little or the DEF is too hot or too low a concentration of urea (ie. quality). There would be different FMI’s if it were really bad DEF fluid. It is the DEF head electronics is not communicating on the J1939 data link correctly.

Any thoughts?

[dave&ginny]

I don't mind running DEF but those sensors are a problem. Somebody has to figure out how to fool the computer and bi-pass them.

[dave&ginny]

Originally Posted by brobox

The idea you had of me camping out at there location since I am so close, didn't work for the school board either. Looks like they are taking the money and hiding.

I wonder what they'd do if we had 200 coaches and semi trucks blocking their parking lot. Why should everybody else be inconvenienced and not them, for their failure to produce a worthy product.

[jeff.herren]

Originally Posted by Lasmck

Some thoughts on DEF codes. Our head failure occurred on April 1. Between Spartan and a great Cummins shop in Tucson the failure to new head installed and back on the road was turned in 26 hours.

My failure codes were:
- SPN 1761 DEF Level, FMI 9 Abnormal update rate
- SPN 3031 DEF Temperature, FMI 9 Abnormal update rate
- SPN 3364 DEF Quality, FMI 9 Abnormal update rate
- SPN 520953 DEF Dosage Unit Relay Feedback, FMI 4 Voltage below normal or shorted to low source.

This was clearly a complete failure of the head and not a specific sensor failure (level sensor, temperature sensor or quality sensor). My theory is an electronics failure, specifically a serial communications chip/circuit (ref. The FMI 9 ‘abnormal update rate’). FMI is ‘Failure Mode Identifier’ used along with the SPN to provide specific information that relates to a diagnostic trouble code. The failure is not that there is too much or too little or the DEF is too hot or too low a concentration of urea (ie. quality). There would be different FMI’s if it were really bad DEF fluid. It is the DEF head electronics is not communicating on the J1939 data link correctly.

Any thoughts?

Interesting idea. A simple retry increase value or increase on timeout in the firmware would help corroborate the thought.

If only Shaw was responsive.....

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Lasmck

. There would be different FMI’s if it were really bad DEF fluid. It is the DEF head electronics is not communicating on the J1939 data link correctly.

Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by jeff.herren

Interesting idea. A simple retry increase value or increase on timeout in the firmware would help corroborate the thought.

If only Shaw was responsive.....

I still believe the more people that have had DEF head failures continue to file complaints with the NHTSA is the only way any pressure is going to be put on Shaw to be responsive.
In my conversation with Cummins yesterday, Mercedes diesels used in Refer trailers don't seem to have DEF sensor problems. If they can manufacture a DEF head that works, Shaw should be able to as well.

[wnytaxman]

Chuck, I’m going to ask what is probably a dumb question. Has anyone had the DEF sensor issues who does not fill up the DEF tank at truck stops? I use the 2.5 gallon containers for my DEF as the ‘R’ Aspires do not have the dual DEF fills. So far (knock on wood three times) we have escaped the issue. Just curious as to whether or not there is a connection to truck stop fills as opposed to jug fills.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by wnytaxman

Chuck, I’m going to ask what is probably a dumb question. Has anyone had the DEF sensor issues who does not fill up the DEF tank at truck stops? I use the 2.5 gallon containers for my DEF as the ‘R’ Aspires do not have the dual DEF fills. So far (knock on wood three times) we have escaped the issue. Just curious as to whether or not there is a connection to truck stop fills as opposed to jug fills.

I had not filled the tanks with truck stop DEF on the two that I had go bad. All of my DEF had been Walmart DEF. To be honest, I don't think it makes any difference on the DEF head going bad. The DEF heads are suppose to sense and report bad DEF, not shut the DEF sensors down leading to an engine shut down.
On DEF head number 1, on my 19 my DEF was bad from sitting to long, you could smell it. The DEF reading were fine on the dash before changing the fluid. As soon as I changed the fluid and started the engine, the DEF head error code came up. Totally opposite of what it should have been

[Hivoltmaint.]

After filing a complaint with the NHTSA, I received a follow up call asking for a little more info. They are very interested in getting this issue resolved, Issue being no de-rate warning in time or miles at the onset of the codes coming up.
The representative did say he talked to some other folks with the same concerns.
So keep those complaints going to the NHTSA. The more they get, the better for them to go to the manufacturer.

FWIW.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Hivoltmaint.

After filing a complaint with the NHTSA, I received a follow up call asking for a little more info. They are very interested in getting this issue resolved, Issue being no de-rate warning in time or miles at the onset of the codes coming up.
The representative did say he talked to some other folks with the same concerns.
So keep those complaints going to the NHTSA. The more they get, the better for them to go to the manufacturer.

FWIW.

Thank you for making that post. The more people that make NHTSA aware of problem the better of a chance we have of some of us not being on DEF head #3 and others not having trips ruined. For a fact NHTSA is working on this as I have also been contacted.

[buck58]

With all of us that have had this issue, some of us still the issues & it has cost us hundreds in some cases thousands of dollars on cancellation fees on our trips much less all the frustration seems like there should be some legal action or a recall or something good that can be done,,, Good Lord everybody that has these things have problems with them [emoji35][emoji35][emoji35]

[buck58]

Entegra-SPARTAN-cummins Somebody should be held accountable Period does anybody stand behind their product anymore?

[brobox]

Originally Posted by buck58

Entegra-SPARTAN-cummins Somebody should be held accountable Period does anybody stand behind their product anymore?

No they do not, or the buck is passed on who is responsible. Only suggestion I could find is the NTSHA to hopefully put government pressure where it belongs. Please file a complaint. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/def...sa-518276.html

[buck58]

Will do.... with who??

[brobox]

Originally Posted by buck58

Will do.... with who??

It's in the link attached in the previous post. Here is is again. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f258/def...sa-518276.html