Community Forums

brobox · 05-17-2014, 06:14 AM

We arrived 5/8 to take delivery of our Anthem and finally took possession on 5/16. I won't go into along list of items that have failed four different Pre Delivery Inspection but a few were no hot water in the 1/2 bath, central vac outlets that were not connected or wired just outlets in the wall, sewer hose connection that was 2.5 inches off center causing sewage to leak when dumping. All were simple items, but NOBODY ever checked to see if they worked. We spent 5 days in Entegra's waiting room waiting for "we will make it right" items which they did. My coach was built, in my opinion at the worst possible time at Entegra, not only weather, but the reason Tadd Jenkins left was worse. Anyhow that is all behind us and time to move forward.

I had hoped our coach had been a learning experience for Entegra and it has. After all of our problems I asked for a meeting with Tadd Jenkins, not to cry about our coach, but to ask if this kind of construction was going to continue? Tadd that morning had just hired a City Sewer Inspector that Tadd has known for years to head a Special PDI department. If this new PDI department DOES come into play, hopefully ours will be the last Entegra to every leave the plant in the condition mine did.

This is just an example of "user items" that were not being inspected before delivery. First time I dumped, the seal on the sewer hose and collar leaked raw sewage as the sharp bend broke the seal.

Let's all hope that Entegra will move to the top in QC after they saw the return of my coach first hand and Tadd Jenkins is putting together a brand new inspection department.

Curtisgeiger · 05-17-2014, 06:38 AM

Quality Control is the only "real" differentiator in this high end motor coach business.

The real measure is us -- the owners.

If we (collectively) do not provide intense feedback like Chuck has been doing to Entegra management -- it will cause us more pain down the road.

I appreciate all the great work that is done on the Entegra portion of this forum. I have been told that Entegra reads this forum -- but a letter to the executive leadership once in a while will help them adjust course when necessary.

Keep it up.

Curt

Sent from my iPhone
Curt and Grace
2014 Aspire 44U

MRUSA14 · 05-17-2014, 06:46 AM

Interesting commentary Chuck. More details about your woes are illuminating. As for your sewer opening photos, my 2013 is the same way. I thought it odd at first but I have a rotating sewer adapter, same brand as yours, and I just rotated it slightly and it has worked fine for over a year. (See photo attached). But you are right, it should line up properly. However, since your coach and mine appear identical in this respect, I doubt this is a PDI issue as much as a design issue. They may all be this way.

cucotx · 05-17-2014, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brobox

... had just hired a City Sewer Inspector that Tadd has known for years to head a Special PDI department. If this new PDI department DOES come into play, hopefully ours will be the last Entegra to every leave the plant in the condition mine did.

What? ... It seems to me that what they need is a heavy duty QA Engineer.

May be they should try to find a Mechanical Engineer from Boeing. That's an example of a company with experience building complex systems. Imagine if Boeing had the quality control that Entegra has ...

I have been doing Engineering for over 30 years, and in my opinion, the most valuable guy to the companies that I have worked for was always a QA/Production Engineer. Usually a Mechanical Engineer. A good QA guy will demand detailed, correct and complete documentation from the development Engineering department. The QA guy would make sure that Process Validation occurs for new systems added to a production line. They will have checklists and traveler documentation that flows from one assembly station in production to the next. They would have frequent training for their production personnel. They would carry out audits of their systems in order to continue to improve on their quality processes ...

I can see why Entegra does not add the customization to their coaches that Newmar provides. If Entegra can't control their manufacturing processes with their limited number of builds, imagine the mess if they had more floor plans to worry about.

brobox · 05-17-2014, 07:11 AM

Marc, people can jerry rig all they want, sorry, but I want a coach that I paid my money for to work as designed. I used that as an example, and there is NO reason I should have raw sewage in my water bay on a brand new coach, sorry! I have plenty of mods I will be doing, but correcting bad sewer connections isn't one of them. Nor is a coach that won't steer, or paint the was never sprayed on, or water faucets (two) that don't work and on and on.

If the carpenters can't put a hole where the plumbers put the pipe, there is a problem. I looked at 4 other Entegra's parked here and yours and mine must be just a few that needed to be jerry rigged, all of the rest were a straight shot.

ravens2012 · 05-17-2014, 07:24 AM

Chuck, after all of your trials and tribulations and hassles, delays and disappointment was your coach finally brought up the the expectations you and everyone else have a right to expect? Were all of the numerous, serious issues resolved to your satisfaction? In your opinion will Entegra put this QC person in place. Will Tadd's return improve the quality of the coaches leaving the plant improve???

Thanks for all your input over the past months.

Roy

brobox · 05-17-2014, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravens2012

Chuck, after all of your trials and tribulations and hassles, delays and disappointment was your coach finally brought up the the expectations you and everyone else have a right to expect? Were all of the numerous, serious issues resolved to your satisfaction? In your opinion will Entegra put this QC person in place. Will Tadd's return improve the quality of the coaches leaving the plant improve???

Thanks for all your input over the past months.

Roy

Roy, after spending a week at Entegra, I learned a lot, not only from Entegra, but talking to many Entegra owners. So far, I think our coach is finally finished...are things going to break, sure they will, just like the jack motor quit the second time we used them. My coach now drives and looks like a brand new coach. After learning what I learned, if Tadd had not been brought back, there would have been many more coach like mine that would have been built. I think Entegra realized this and brought Tadd back no matter what the cost was. After our meeting yesterday, I feel the quality of Entegra will continue to improve. Was the quality of my coach brought up to everyone else's? Yes, it was, it just took a lot longer than it should have because of a dealer that was not truthful in their repairs.

Saltydog44 · 05-17-2014, 07:46 AM

Marc,

Interesting - we both have SL's built about the same time (Based on delivery dates) and my opening is a straight shot. It's hard for me to see how that happens since I would assume there should be a template or something. I wonder if there are different templates for different floorplans and somehow you and Chuck got the wrong bay floors. That issue is just silly (Meaning it's hard to imagine that production could mess that up.)

brobox · 05-17-2014, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravens2012

Thanks for all your input over the past months.

Roy

I forgot to mention, that my meeting with Tadd yesterday was closed asking, "please do not let another Entegra leave the plant like mine did." You are welcome and I hope my being vocal will get others the quality they are paying for. I have already owned one Winnebago, I didn't need a second one, nor does anyone purchasing an Entegra.

DSL417 · 05-17-2014, 08:34 AM

Well that sewer opening thing is just weird. My 2013 was built a little after Marcs, and a little before Emerson's. All three different models. My sewer opening is directly over the hole. No "adjustments" necessary.

Tadd and I talke QC and quality assurance processes before he left. Don't know why he left or why he returned, but a focus on quality and pre-departure inspection would be a welcome addition. I would think there will be an increased focus of dealer delivery as well. Time will tell.

ravens2012 · 05-17-2014, 08:38 AM

Chuck,
Glad to hear that. And again sorry you went through all that but because of you hopefully none of us will have to.

Roy

Saltydog44 · 05-17-2014, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSL417

Well that sewer opening thing is just weird. My 2013 was built a little after Marcs, and a little before Emerson's. All three different models. My sewer opening is directly over the hole. No "adjustments" necessary.

Tadd and I talke QC and quality assurance processes before he left. Don't know why he left or why he returned, but a focus on quality and pre-departure inspection would be a welcome addition. I would think there will be an increased focus of dealer delivery as well. Time will tell.

Minor correction but it makes the issue even wierder - Marc and I both have SL's.

wmpbauer · 05-17-2014, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cucotx

What? ... It seems to me that what they need is a heavy duty QA Engineer.

May be they should try to find a Mechanical Engineer from Boeing. That's an example of a company with experience building complex systems. Imagine if Boeing had the quality control that Entegra has ...

I have been doing Engineering for over 30 years, and in my opinion, the most valuable guy to the companies that I have worked for was always a QA/Production Engineer. Usually a Mechanical Engineer. A good QA guy will demand detailed, correct and complete documentation from the development Engineering department. The QA guy would make sure that Process Validation occurs for new systems added to a production line. They will have checklists and traveler documentation that flows from one assembly station in production to the next. They would have frequent training for their production personnel. They would carry out audits of their systems in order to continue to improve on their quality processes ...

I can see why Entegra does not add the customization to their coaches that Newmar provides. If Entegra can't control their manufacturing processes with their limited number of builds, imagine the mess if they had more floor plans to worry about.

For what it's worth:

I had this same conversation with Andy Baer of Entegra Coach at the FMCA rally in Perry, GA in March. Not only did he acknowledge and own the defects, he agreed that QA rather than QC is the better path to follow. I am convinced that steps are being taken by Entegra Coach to lead the industry to an improved future. It is not going to happen over night. I'm talking about new ways to train new employees, ways to retrain the old employees (which may in fact be a much more difficult task), changing inspection processes.....in essence, the whole design & manufacturing paradigm. No longer will it be "get the product out," but rather, "Do it right the first the first time." This is a whole new thing and it's going to take time.

In this thread, it's been evident that it's hard to tell whether a problem is a manufacturing defect, a design flaw, or both. If manufacturers can't tell the difference, quality cannot improve. The entire industry, regardless of price point, has this same problem. I believe that it's based on the old paradigm of "Get the product out," which says to me, that it just has to be "good enough." At every price point, things have to be fixed off the assembly line, even in the million dollar coaches.

What's changed, is the expectations of you and I, the buyers, and I believe the company that acknowledges this and gets out in front of the industry in QA, delivering coaches that work right, first-time, every-time, will own the market. PDI, IMHO is just a stop-gap. The golden standard lies in Quality Assurance.

I think Entegra Coach stands a good chance at making a run at it. Only time will tell.

Pat Bauer, President
Entegra Coach Owners Association

Wmpbauer

brobox · 05-17-2014, 09:26 AM

cucotx, I have been involved with Cities for a good number of years, and believe me a Sewer inspector is pretty high up. Can you imagine what a City or a neighborhood would smell like if he didn't do his job?

I would be glad to have him inspect my coach as that is something that was missed by many sets of eye in many locations, from chassis to paint, to Entegra, to dealer and back to Entegra.