Community Forums

brobox · 03-13-2022, 07:02 AM

From this post yesterday, https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/err...ad-573311.html and the one from a few days ago, both with great photos, thank you Stu, 777 Driver. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/def...ow-573234.html I set out to see if I could find anymore information on the "new" DEF sensors/DEF heads. I take an interest in this subject as I have and 2 failures on brand new coaches with less than 2,000 miles each

From a very good source, Spartan has been in-the-works with Errecinque https://www.errecinque.com/urea_sender_unit an Italian based company with a marketing branch in Detroit since last year. The new units were to be installed starting last August, that apparently didn't happen. From the first photo that showed a different DEF sensor purchased at Quartzsite asking if this was a Gen 7 part number?, that was in February 22. The ID tag was different than a Shaw DEF sensors and got my curiosity up. It was the post above that mentions the new company that Spartan had not or would not disclose in the past. My source still does not know what date the Errecinque DEF heads were put into service.

If you have a new 22 coach, do check what DEF head you may have. To my knowledge there are no markings, a call would be needed to Spartan. Any updated information would be appreciated. If Your chassis was built in 20 or 21 it was probably built before the new DEF sensors were out. Speaking from experience with Spartan, my 21 coach had a Gen 5 DEF head installed in a 2019 chassis, six months after the GEN 6's were on the market and being installed. Spartan does use left over parts and will not disclose until it is too late. JME

Do I still need DEF Simulator? Good question that is too soon to tell. Let's hope the "new" DEF heads are superior to Shaw DEF heads, but there is no guarantee. The new company is very large with manufacturing plants all over Europe. In addition, the prices are more than double. Shaw DEF heads were $700. Errecinque price is $1,600. for just the sensor. Just saw posted on FB where a couple of Classic DEF heads had failed. Replacement heads were in the $2,600 range and one did have a few days wait for a replacement. A DSS unit will now be on any diesel coach I own, now or in the future.

flyboy013 · 03-14-2022, 11:00 AM

So you got me thinking…

First off, I’m wondering how interchangeable the DEF heads are. From my reading here, I see that there are several ways in which DEF heads are mounted onto the tank. There is a bayonet mount, rubber head mount, and the flange and bolt mount. The ones on our chassis are the flange and bolt mount. Do you know if the bolt patterns are universal? If we were to purchase a DEF head from a different manufacture, would it mount in the existing tank? I realize that the connector and length of the head itself also needs to be considered. I’m basically wondering if we have options of using heads from other manufacturers or if we would need to change out the tank too? The $2,600 price tag is a bit high that I’m willing to consider what other options we have.

Also, there are multiple options when it comes to the DEF head. While I don’t know how much the heating capability drives up the cost, I would think that for most of us, this is an option that’s not needed. Something worth considering as one looks at alternative DEF heads.

It seems to me that the DEF head has several functions. First it has tubes to the DEF pump to suck DEF from the tank and to pump any unused DEF back into the tank. Pretty basic function. It then has a heating capability, but this is pretty much connecting the head to the coolant lines to allow the DEF to heat up to thaw the fluid if needed. Again, a pretty basic capability which I believe doesn’t require any internal mechanical components. The final capability is the sensors which we are all too familiar with. This is what has failed and drove the creation of the DEF Sensor Simulator (DSS).

The DSS generates messages for the ECU such that the ECU doesn’t generate fault codes due to not know the temperature, quality, and quantity of the fluid. So, I’m wondering if we can expand on the DSS capability. I know some on this forum sees issues with the DSS sending out “fake” messages to the ECU. What if we could expand on the DSS capability and add a sensor in lieu of the drain plug that could take temperature and level measurements (based on the weight of the fluid). The values would be read by the DSS unit and those reading would be use instead of the “hard coded” values that’s currently used. This particular implementation wouldn’t measure the quality of the fluid, but two out of three is better than none.

Thoughts?

brobox · 03-14-2022, 12:40 PM

The $2,600 mentioned in the OP was to replace a 2012 DEF head, not one of the newer sensors. I hope I didn't confuse anyone. Apparently the older units are not being mass produced like the newer units. The new Sensor purchased from Spartan at Quartzsite was stated as $1,600. Just my guess, the $700. Shaw sensor did not work, so I guess it is "you get what your pay for" and the new cost of chips. Still sounds awful high.

I wish I knew more about the new units, but only what I have been able to gather here and a few phone calls.

Road-Chi · 03-14-2022, 01:41 PM

Just called Spartan and was informed our 22 CS has a Gen 7 DEF Head made by Shaw. Have ordered the DSS supplies and plan on building the DSS.

brobox · 03-14-2022, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road-Chi

Just called Spartan and was informed our 22 CS has a Gen 7 DEF Head made by Shaw. Have ordered the DSS supplies and plan on building the DSS.

Do you happen to have the chassis date? It might help others, also give us and idea when the new DEF heads might have gone into service.

Granite17 · 03-14-2022, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brobox

Do you happen to have the chassis date? It might help others, also give us and idea when the new DEF heads might have gone into service.

I know our 2022 London Aire has a Gen 7 and the chassis built date was July 2021.

Road-Chi · 03-14-2022, 03:52 PM

RE: "Do you happen to have the chassis date? It might help others, also give us and idea when the new DEF heads might have gone into service."

Not sure of the Chassis date. Where is that information listed?

brobox · 03-14-2022, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road-Chi

RE: "Do you happen to have the chassis date? It might help others, also give us and idea when the new DEF heads might have gone into service."

Not sure of the Chassis date. Where is that information listed?

On the drivers side console behind the seat will be the Spartan sticker. It will have the chassis build date.

RVFunlovers · 03-14-2022, 06:59 PM

I am away from my coach so I do not know the exact date but my Spartan chassis build date is September 2021.

I was told by Spartan parts department that I have a Errecinque DEF head.

RVFunlovers · 03-14-2022, 07:03 PM

Your question on the chassis build date reminded me that it is a good idea to take a picture of the labels behind the drivers seat and records that info as well. And I have failed to do it.

redbaron73 · 03-14-2022, 07:31 PM

My 2022 London Aire has a chassis date of Nov 21, and a Gen 6 shaw according to Spartan. Seems like they are still drudging the stock bin.

I have my DSS ready to go when I pickup my coach next month.

Archer2 · 03-14-2022, 10:01 PM

Hi Flyboy013. I was poking around and found this webpage. It discusses a way to re-purpose a single chip flow sensor and turn it into a DEF concentration sensor. The documentation was a little opaque but apparently there is an Arduino Library for the device.
The OP established that the thermal conductivity of DEF varies linearly with a change in Urea percentage. Thought you might be interested. Here’s the post to the idea
https://developer.sensirion.com/arch...ration-sensor/

Here’s the Sensiron catalog page https://sensirion.com/products/catalog/SDP800-500Pa/

Here’s the library on GitHub for the Sensiron devices
https://github.com/Sensirion/arduino-i2c-sdp

brobox · 03-15-2022, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVFunlovers

Your question on the chassis build date reminded me that it is a good idea to take a picture of the labels behind the drivers seat and records that info as well. And I have failed to do it.

Really comes in when calling Spartan or Entegra. I do have one photo folder on my phone with all of the MH and Toad ID plates, licenses plates and tire dates. Handy when registering at an RV park when they want the license plate numbers of both vehicles. Also when answering a date question on the forum.

brobox · 03-15-2022, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbaron73

My 2022 London Aire has a chassis date of Nov 21, and a Gen 6 shaw according to Spartan. Seems like they are still drudging the stock bin.

I have my DSS ready to go when I pickup my coach next month.

You have me beat...my 21 had a Gen 5 DEF head, that quickly failed. Spartan will use up old stock without a doubt. Thanks for pointing out for others with new coaches, do not take a change that you will have a new style DEF head.