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Old 03-18-2021, 12:13 PM   #267
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Isaac-1,
Thanks for that clarification. So for those shopping for a supplemental braking system it would be wise to ensure the system you're looking at is in fact one of those with the time out feature.

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Old 03-18-2021, 01:56 PM   #268
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I expect people may have looked however for those who have not, on the Demco site wrt Air Force One, there is a link to trouble shooting.

https://cdn.demco-products.com/gener...345&focal=none

And on page 4 there is a flow chart to diagnose a failed brake away switch.

I’ve used AFO for 6 years and it’s been good. Granted I have not had a vehicle break away...

HOWEVER,

I did have the locking LEVER on one side of my BO Aventa LX fail while going 60 on a (fortunately strait & flat) stretch of interstate. My explorer started to move around a bit as one arm wasn’t locked. Slowed down slowly, and I think the proportional breaking from the AFO helped.

I had the big box BO Patriot unit. Didn’t always knew if it worked as signal would drop. Plus what do you do with the thing when stopping for a few days. Long gone.

Changing toad this year so reading this and other threads as I’m trying to decide on baseplate and new tow bar. New toad is ~ 6200 vs. explorer @~5k.
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Old 03-18-2021, 02:18 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
WA state law requires that safety chains/cables be crossed under the hitch, not that they'll stop and check.
I've never understood the purpose of crossing chains so I looked up WA law (WAC 204—70—070) which says "Be crossed in such a manner as to prevent the tongue from dropping to the ground and to maintain connection in the event of failure of the primary connecting system." Not sure if my built in safety cables on the Commander 2 can be crossed. *
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Old 03-18-2021, 08:02 PM   #270
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To the original poster: dave&ginny - Sorry to hear this and thanks very much for sharing your experience.



I have the Blue Ox Aventa 2 (10,000 lbs) and the M&G Braking cylinder system (with emergency braking air canister and LED indicator). I bought the M&G system new and installed it myself and have had no problems with it. It works very well. My TOAD is my daily driver. I have the Blue Ox front low profile front hitch plate, too, with grade 8 bolts. My Jeep Liberty is probably around 4500 lbs. The Blue Ox Aventa 2 was bought used on ebay and it was wore out, but very cheap. The swivel yoke was loose because it was made from aluminum and the holes had wallowed from the use. The attach fingers of the Aventa that attach to the front hitch frame were loose because of the same thing and they were aluminum. The swivel block that joins the aluminum yoke to the two adjustable arm assemblies was aluminum, too, and it was wallowed from use.



I went to a welding shop and had them TIG weld a new yoke of the same design but used thicker material in steel. The adjustable arm sections were reinforced in front with new one inch long cylinder barstock drilled in the center to accept the arms. The barstock was TIG welded to the output of the larger arm to make that feed through section tighter. The weld shop total cost in parts and labor for all of it plus two more steel yokes as backup was around $150. I bought the new fingers in steel and the yoke block in steel from a popular trailer supply company. I bought new grade 8 bolts from a popular fastener company and a new OEM Blue Ox washer kit for the entire tow bar assembly with new boots for the adjustable sections. Every bolt in the "Aventa 2" is grade 8 now except for that very long bolt for the swivel block section that the adjustable arms are attached to. That still lets me prop the bar up out of the way if I need to, but I could change that out to another bolt maybe in the future. I had to cut off some of the threads of some of the bolts a little, but the non threaded shank length was right on. I could not find a store bought steel yoke at the time. The weight of the entire tow bar assembly now is significantly heavier. If I were significantly older that extra weight might be a problem.


I have put about 40,000 miles on the M&G braking system. I had to replace a power brake cylinder and had to remove the M&G cylinder. While it was removed, I took it all apart down to each individual part and inspected for wear. It was as good as new. It still had plenty of grease inside, but I added a little more, reassembled it, and put it back on the Jeep. I have only put enough miles on the heavier modified Blue Ox Aventa tow bar to get me three quarters across America. After that, I took the modified Blue Ox bar apart, inspected, and reassembled it. I didn't see any wear or cracks in the welding or bolts and the OEM washers looked new. I have the coiled cables and they still look good. I put new keepers on the cables.



I am not new to RVing or living aboard, but flat towing was new to me and I didn't know what to really expect even after all the reading I did on it. The extra work I did on the tow bar assembly was not hard, just time consuming. If this modified hitch wears out, I might go with a custom built A-Frame tow bar with ball hitch assembly that fits my existing Blue Ox Jeep front hitch plate. There have been no problems at all with this front hitch plate. When I take the front hitch plate quick disconnect pins off the plate after a trip, I put a special boot over the cylindrical openings to keep rain and dirt out. That works good, too. I'm keeping the M&G brake system (M&G located in Athens, TX). If it wears out, I can rebuild it, or just get a new one. It's worth it to me.



I have towed my Jeep Liberty also with a car hauler with no problems before I started to flat tow. The electric brakes on the car hauler worked very well. I'll try to be careful and I'll be keeping an eye on the modified tow bar.
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Old 03-18-2021, 08:19 PM   #271
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I wanted to add something to this post that I think is very important. First off for years we used Blue Ox and it always seemed very sloppy. I finally decided to get away from them as I could see a failure waiting to happen. I went with roadmaster and bought the nighthawk which is an 8,000 pound towbar. I decided to update the cables and purchased there set of replacement cables rated for 8,000 pounds. That’s 4,000 pounds per cable. I opened the package and looked closely at the closed end cable attachments. They came from Taiwan and each was rated at 2,000 pounds. Not good and it really is a very unsafe situation. I decided to make a change and purchased 64” of 5/16” grade 100 chain which is rated at 5,700 pounds each. I also purchased 2 5/16” hammer lock grade 100 and 2 Slip hooks grade 100. I purchased everything from a crane and rigging company.

I will be upgrading the towbar to the roadmaster Blackhawk which is rated at 10,000 pounds. I will only use the safety chains for security.

I have attached a picture of the closed latch that is rated at 2,000 pounds. If anyone is using these it might be a good idea to get rid of them

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Old 03-18-2021, 08:36 PM   #272
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travel_man,
What an awesome post. Looks like what you've ended up with is not "good as new" ... it's "better than new!"

Regarding your comment about rebuilding your M&G -- the cylinder/piston has a lifetime warranty to original owner so you should never have to touch it.

Finally -- great idea on the dustcover for the quick release tab receivers. Can you share your source?

Regards,
Lou S.
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Old 03-18-2021, 10:08 PM   #273
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Chieflou - Thanks.


I'll dig through my receipts to see where I got those boots. All those miles I put on them and they have never budged. They are black thick boot covers a few inches in length that I think were used on pipes. I cleaned out my hitch plate tubing and then sprayed Corrosion X in there. Corrosion X has a thick version for salty environments and a fine version for electrical. I bought both and used the thick version inside the hitch plate tubing and the fine version on my coach battery compartment power control printed circuit board. That PCB looks like new now when I thought the fine corrosion of the electrical traces would have me replace it soon. I was looking for ways to keep my hitch plate from failing from rust so Corrosion X will stay in there. I grease the inside of the quick release tab receivers, too, to help stop wear during the pull. The dust covers keep all the rain and dirt out of there and work very well.


Thanks for the M&G info. I'm the original owner of my M&G system. There is a port on the driver side of the cylinder. It is used as a vent during the forward and back action of the piston. Since the inside of the cylinder is greased, I was worried that I might pull some debris/dirt inside the cylinder from the occasional vacuum created through that port if that is possible. I bought two valve cover engine breathers and a right angle plastic vacuum adapter. I modified the diameter of the right angle adapter to fit that port diameter. I then ran some rubber fuel line from the right angle adapter to one of the breathers and dressed it into the side of the inside fender to get it out of the way of any water splash from the front. I had to build up the line a little with an inch of smaller diameter rubber line to get the breather to fit on it right. I ran some of that extra high pressure tubing similar to what is used with the emergency brake canister kit to another breather and connected the other end to a spark plug boot. The spark plug boot is on the port to the air brake line in front of my Jeep. I think owners had been recommended to use a spark plug boot on that port and pointed down to keep dirt out. I just put a breather on it with line and tucked it away out of view. Hopefully I have it covered both ways. Probably very little if any thing could happen, but I wanted to be careful. I used wire split loom tubing (armored electrical harness tubing) on all of the high pressure lines to make it look OEM like Jeep and for extra protection from nicks on the tubing.



Also, in some areas of the country, dirt daubers make nests in anything including those ports in the brake cylinder, ends of any hoses or tubes, sides of engine blocks, anywhere. I've had this happen to me with other equipment. My valve cover breathers keep my lines clean.


It seems like alot of work went into all of this, but not as much as one would think when you have all the parts at hand and ready to go. I have this compact tow system that I can put in a box on my pull out drawer in the side coach compartment and the brake system is blended in and completely in the engine compartment. The whole thing has been reliable. I'll keep inspecting it before, during, and after a trip.



I'll look and see were I bought those boots and upload some pictures later of them and the breathers.
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Old 03-18-2021, 10:11 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grn_Mtn_Boy View Post
I don't use the AF1 system so forgive me if this misses the mark. As I understand it, toads equipped with the system are driven around after unhitching with a brake system that could lock up the brakes if the switch or wiring dislodges or is damaged while driving. I replaced my switch when it was damaged from road debris while driving in traffic. It would not have been good for my car brakes to spontaneously lock up during the incident. If there is a proceedure for disarming the AF1 after disconnecting the toad, that would be on my unhitching checklist. Surprised it's not in the AF1 instructions to do so.

I always pull the switch cable and bleed the air on my M&G for this very reason. Usually 3 times and its bled down.

The air relay is power to activate and would take an external 12v hot wire to short to the wiring to have a false activation which is unlikely
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Old 03-18-2021, 10:16 PM   #275
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I've been bleeding the air in my M&G emergency brake canister, too, after I disconnect. One time I was testing it for operation and forgot to bleed it down when I was checking other things. When I put my Jeep in gear to go I didn't go anywhere.
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Old 03-18-2021, 10:47 PM   #276
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towed break light

Thank you ChiefLou. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I just need to figure out why the toed break came one once when the engine break did. Following closely.
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Old 03-19-2021, 12:28 AM   #277
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To all of you who read this and are thinking “OMG this thread is already 20 pages and 270 posts – enough already!” Please indulge us “hangers-on” … plus there continue to be brand new posters.

To Dave,
I hope you’re still with us and forgive if it seems we’ve hijacked your thread. We are all still anxiously waiting and watching for more posts from you with a great ending to your towbar misfortune.

I’ve learned a tremendous amount from this one, single thread precisely because it has rambled on, wandered from towbars to supp. brake systems and their operating characteristics to jake/exhaust brake discussions and everywhere in between. This one thread is the epitome of what I mentioned in an earlier post as the real mission of this forum – EDUCATION. I’m getting that … along with ever expanding shopping list … LOL!

To travel_man,
Another awesome post. It has added to the length of my shopping list.

You know, your efforts to keep your cylinder and airline uncontaminated border on what they call “anal” don’t ya? But that’s cool … my list keeps growing. I had done nothing yet with the cylinder vent and for the air line connection I used the (supplied) spark plug boot, attached leftover airline which I coiled 3 times (bout 6” dia) and hung it up behind the bumper. May post pics of my air/lighting/breakaway switch connections … all behind the license plate. Plate is removeable with push release fasteners. Hated “uglying up” the pretty front end of my RAM with all that stuff sticking out everywhere. Also the BO baseplates for the RAM are barely visible without the tabs inserted.

To Jon_C and travel_man,
I hadn’t considered bleeding the breakaway storage tank. I almost commented on this yesterday but Jon_C said it for me. The odds of an accidental storage tank activation are incredibly low. A 12v wire somewhere would have to “get naked” and then hook up with a “naked” section of the wire going from the breakaway switch to the MAC valve. Of course the most likely location of that happening would be the 12v wire going from battery down to the switch if it’s running alongside the MAC supply wire. But I think most of us put those wires in split loom so there pretty safe from chafing to bare copper. The only other possibility would be failure of the MAC valve itself. BUT, if you don’t bleed your storage tank, AND THEN verify the breakaway applies brakes by yanking lanyard pre-trip – you’ve just proved the MAC valve is not leaky. I guess it would make sense to bleed tank post-trip if you were not planning to head out again for months or next year. But while on the road, I think just doing the pre-trip breakaway activation test is good. Please let me know if I’ve missed a logic point anywhere in this.

By the way, that breakaway activation test also eliminates the much, much more likely fail point, which is 12v NOT getting to the MAC valve due to corroded contacts in the breakaway switch, broken wire (anywhere between batt connection thru switch to MAC valve) or bad connections anywhere along those wires.

Best regards to all and forgive my verboseness. I really strive for brevity but long sentences keep falling out of my head onto the keyboard. See! I just did it some more!
Lou S.
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Old 03-19-2021, 09:00 AM   #278
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tow bar failure

Dave,
Unless I missed it, I have not heard solution to the Avail problem, except to buy a different tow bar. I believe you are waiting for a response from BO. After looking at your photos and checking my new Avail, I can see how that one area is a weak spot. Bad design!! Does anyone know if that area can be "beefed up" by welding supporting plates along side? For now, I'm going to make sure my break away brake is working. I also plan to talk with BO more. I am also going to check my liability insurance to see if I am protected if the TOAD breaks away and kills someone. Now, that is a scary thought both morally, legally and financially!

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Old 03-19-2021, 10:06 AM   #279
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Chieflou - It could be considered by some to be extreme, but I used to work in an industry that services pneumatic valves and I just went with the flow on this project. I like to fix things a little more so hopefully I never have to fix it again. That gives me time for other projects.



The vinyl covers are two years old and I don't have the receipt or source. I got them from eBay and the archive does not show them because it has been so far back. The search terms that I would use are: "Rubber End Cap" and "Vinyl End Cap". At the time, it was all that I could find. There might be better ways to cover that structure, though.


I uploaded some pictures. One is of the breather I used for the pneumatic cylinder system. My end cap inside diameter was about 2 inches, but I would be careful since I ordered the incorrect size the first time. Mine are tight, but not that tight. I can push them on and the lower part of the Jeep Liberty bumper cover helps keep them on, too.


I installed a Hopkins towed vehicle battery maintainer to keep my battery charged and alot of other special things to help reliability. The charger wire is attached to my trailer receptacle in front of the Jeep and gets voltage from the coach.


The Avail tow bar "problem" could be the aluminum yoke, aluminum swivel block, and aluminum attachment fingers when used alot and gets wore out. That part that broke on the original posters tow bar looked like it was made of aluminum. I saw a post and pictures of someone that had a yoke failure on their Avail. Aluminum can work harden over time, too, and crack. I contacted Blue Ox about a replacement in steel and others, but could not find anything. Welding plate (aluminum) or finding some way to reinforce that area is something I looked at, but I went to a good welding shop and just had one made of steel. For older people, a light weight tow bar is good. My all steel version is heavier, but I don't have to walk far to store it and two people of any size can very easily handle it. I read that Blue Ox can rebuild your tow bar or during RV events can assist you in doing so.
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Old 03-19-2021, 11:50 AM   #280
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inspect your tow bars

I use a inside the vehicle supplemental braking system similar to Brake Buddy.

I've always wondered about the the cable that pulls the pin when your towed vehicle breaks loose. On the type of SBS I've always used, it seems to me that if the tow bar breaks free but the safety cables remain intact, all you have is a 3 ton vehicle running free behind your MH. Slow down and the toad hits the back of the RV. If the Toad doesn't break free, it will demolish the rear end of the MH.

What I did was disconnect the tow bar and push the toad back till the safety cables are tight. I then shortened the break away cable so that it would pull the pin and activate the SSD. You would be surprised how far that coiled cable has to be stretched to pull the pin.

Gary 05 AMB DST
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