Community Forums

zman62 · 06-08-2014, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSL417

Sad:( Didn't read the full thread. Welcome to the downside of the forum. Take one post out of the context of the full discussion and you can quickly draw some incomplete or downright wrong conclusions:(

Maybe I am missing something. I dont see a downside. Seemed like a constructive conversation with the exception of the last poster saying not to buy an entegra. I love our coach but there are area that need attention. I was just curious if it was just my coach, entegra or the industry. I think we have determined its the industry.

DSL417 · 06-08-2014, 11:08 PM

Yes...unfortunately, one post can take on a life of its own. A month from now I'll read on another forum about the wiring problem that Entegra has. That is why I'm saddened. I think beach bum hit the nail on the head...I just didn't have the background he does...but I suspected. And coaches are no different than having a house built with this kind of stuff. The last two I had built, we swept the corners and the concrete floors before the carpet went down. No one ever gave me the wiring diagrams for either house.

zman62 · 06-08-2014, 11:19 PM

Well I think it was clearly established via the pics posted that newmar is doing the exact same thing. If newmar is guilty my guess is so are the others. These coaches are awesome but not perfect. Honestly I was wondering if it was just my coach which is why I started the thread. I now see its the industry. I have cleaned a lot of mine up in the hopes of heading off any future problems

I dont think beachbum is correct. Its not an entegra growth issue as proven by the newmar pictures posted. That doesnt make it right but it shows us that entegra is not doing something wrong. They are following the industry

brobox · 06-09-2014, 04:52 AM

The reason Entegra did not get any drawings when they bought Travel Supreme is because there weren't any. The owners also did not have a wiring diagram, heck we didn't even have an owners manual, All we had were the vendors manuals. If there was an electrical problem it was normally faster to run a new wire than trace it. It would have been nice to know where things went, but we didn't

I know what wiring looks like on most MH and why I had already purchase a bundle of wire ties before the Anthem arrived. It gives me a chance to go over my MH, do a few nips & tucks and get familiar with it. There will come a day on the highway that I will be glad I got familiar with my MH and where things are located.

I have also been behind the panels on most MH manufactures and they all have construction debris behind them if it is a production line MH, it's a fact of life. Be thankful we don't have floor vents in the Entegra, you should see what workers hide in there.

Am I going to find a few things like my hanging temp sensor, YES, will I trade it in for another brand, no because they will all have the same glitches.

Crippsfl · 06-09-2014, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zman62

Well this answers my question. Its not entegra but the industry. I wonder if the king aire or the cornerstone look any better.

I am expecting to get my Cornerstone next week. I will let you know. However, I fully expect it to be very similar to an Anthem or and Aspire or, for that matter, a Newmar.

Recently, the Extreme RV's program showed a Cornerstone being built. In another episode, they showed a King Aire being built. After watching these guys pull wire through these coaches, I am not a bit surprised that things aren't as "neat and tidy" as we would like to see.

SWag · 06-09-2014, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSL417

Yes...unfortunately, one post can take on a life of its own. A month from now I'll read on another forum about the wiring problem that Entegra has. That is why I'm saddened. I think beach bum hit the nail on the head...I just didn't have the background he does...but I suspected. And coaches are no different than having a house built with this kind of stuff. The last two I had built, we swept the corners and the concrete floors before the carpet went down. No one ever gave me the wiring diagrams for either house.

Dave, I’m sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you. I don’t see this thread as being negative at all. If anything, it’s this kind of dialog that could lead us to purchasing even better products from Entegra or Newmar in the future, that would be my hope.

I certainly wasn’t slamming Newmar with my post, I made it a point of stating that I do love the product I own and that I am planning on purchasing another new coach from Newmar. My point was that I believe this is an industry problem, not something isolated to any particular manufacturer. I believe as an industry, the manufacturers of class A motor homes can do a better job. A new class A is not an inexpensive purchase and personally, I think they can do a better job of building their product with very little additional cost or effort. We’re not talking about anything difficult to accomplish. As consumers we just accept that a new motor home will need a lot of adjustment and repair in the first year … why? We don’t accept this when we purchase a new car, why should it be the culture of the RV world? Perhaps a little better focus on getting things right the first time might alleviate some of the start up problems with a new coach?

It should be our hope that senior management from these companies read these posts and get a better understanding of what their customers would like to see in the products they purchase in the future. If I were a Newmar executive I would be all over this issue. I would invest the little extra it would take to add the additional quality and use it as a competitive advantage in a highly competitive environment. Both Newmar and Entegra are known for building great products, some of the best in the industry, but there is always room for improvement no matter how good you are.

I’m sitting here with a retail purchase sheet for a new 2015 Dutch Star 4381 on my desk and should I get agreement from the DW (fingers crossed

) I may place an order in August. If there was an option box to tick for a package that included neat and organized wiring with labeling and a full set of drawings I would gladly pay for it!

Scott

Nowabeachbum · 06-09-2014, 06:40 AM

I guess I'm kinda confused. Many of the comments here make it sound like Entegra prefers building products without prints with harness' that are too big! Anyone that has ever been anywhere near a production plant knows the best, most reliable way to build anything is to make it idiot proof. One way connectors, installing assemblies pre made from suppliers and have harness' the right length with proper connectors make it fast and simple. Entegra has been playing catchup by reverse engineering practically everything! As I understand it, this project is for the most part finished. Now engineering is trying to actually engineer! As I said before, wait another 5 years! Talking about the way it should be is like trying to change history, seems kind of pointless! Just sayin!

KSCRUDE · 06-09-2014, 07:02 AM

I only read about the first page before I posted. Amd glanced over some of the pics. That being said. The wiring on our Newmar is pretty tidy. Not perfect, but not to bad. Under the hood, behind the dash and in all the basement compartments it looks pretty good. I don't think they have much for labeling though. For cars and trucks they have a factory made wiring harness. Due to the length of a motor home and the amount of wires, that would hard to make and install. Just easier to pull the wires in where they need to go and make your own harness to custom fit.

All RV builders could do a better job.

Moonrover · 06-09-2014, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSCRUDE

.... All RV builders could do a better job.

KS ... That's the understatement of the year !! 😬

Industry wide standards (gag ... choke) are wherever they (the RV manufacturers) want them to be. They set their own standards.

As long as customers keep shelling out big bucks for hastily conceived and "engineered" RVs, not to mention the slam-bang assembly practices ... the industry as a whole will continue as is.

Honestly, as it stands, a customer who is in the market for a new RV has no choice but to purchase the "industry standard" quality. Customers can wear out shoe leather roaming around huge RV sales lots, looking for signs of high quality (behind the panel) and see the same on all RVs. I'm not talking about some saw dust crumbs, or a few odd carpet scraps ... I'm pointing to the incredibly bone-headed under-the-cover engineering (term used loosely) designs.

You may have guessed. I'm a registered professional engineer (retired) ... old school, where thinking was required. I nearly go into cardiac arrest when I look inside the guts of wiring, mechanical, and plumbing systems being stuffed into RVs that command astronomical prices.

I need to take a pill and calm down ....... 😐

DSL417 · 06-09-2014, 09:57 AM

The bottom line is there aren't wiring diagrams, there are probably not going to be wiring diagrams for sometime in the future (for multiple brands), that's not unlike other building products that contain electrical wiring, individually label wires while desirable would be expensive and are another unlikelyhood, and generally you don't know what kinds of building byproducts (like sawdust and construction debris/mistakes are hidden) in all brands. Agree with Beachbum!

MRUSA14 · 06-09-2014, 10:19 AM

Dave, if that is the case then how come Monaco and Beaver and Holiday Rambler had labeled wiring and gave wiring diagrams to all new purchasers over a decade ago? Their coaches were not priced above the competition, and they were best sellers at the time.

It is not just that neatness counts, but more importantly reparability counts. And I don't buy the argument that it would cost a fortune to make wiring diagrams. To the contrary I believe it would save money by making production more efficient, and I know it would save money when repairs are needed later in the life of the product. This is not about breaking new ground here, it is more about best practices that have already been achieved by the competition.

I was surprised to hear that Newmar is on the same plane as Entegra in this regard. They both have some improving to do.

For those people that will read this thread and say "Don't buy an Entegra", that's the wrong conclusion. Entegra has many attributes that are first rate. No coach is outstanding in every area, and every coach needs improvement in one area or another. To point out a need for improvement does not negate the larger fact that an Entegra coach is a first-rate coach and an outstanding value, built and backed by a first-class company.

DSL417 · 06-09-2014, 01:58 PM

I'd bet the emphasis is on "had".

I'm sorry, Marc, but I believe you wrong WRT wiring diagrams. They are expensive to produce to standard, they are expensive to maintain, and that is multiplied by rolling changes that Entegra performs within the model year. They were very expensive in the electronics industry...they are pure overhead with little recognizable return on investment and require a full up configuration management control section to assure they are kept current and versions controlled.

Would they be a good thing to have...I said before, I agree...but there are significant costs associated with this. Just my experience on this one.

Ann n Gene · 06-09-2014, 02:05 PM

KSCrude. LOL, guess the Newmarket pics are the jokes on you!

jfb318 · 06-09-2014, 03:12 PM

This sloppy wiring situation is not industry wide. Take a look at a lower line coach, specifically those built by Forest River. Not the greatest product however their wiring would put both Entegra and Tiffin to shame. Every harness is wrapped and the correct length without excess wire hanging everywhere. The wire bundles are all tie wrapped as they should be. Very impressive after looking at the others. I'm sure they are not the only ones that take the time and have the pride to do it right!