Wow--- The volume of new and used coaches for sale is amazing

[brobox]

Originally Posted by baraff

Truth. The entire scene has changed and not for the better. The whole attraction was being able to just get in your RV and wing it. Unless you're traveling off-season it is extremely difficult to find a site in a popular area. Even the shoulder seasons have gotten to the point where it's a challenge.
We had plans to buy a newer RV but are rethinking it.

That has also been our biggest complaint. It is has really taken the enjoyment out of long trips for us having to play hopscotch 9 months in advance trying to find places to stay where we want to visit. I know others have thrown up their hands and joined the group tours. Which has been another problem trying to book parks. The group tours reserve large blocks of spaces for the peak travel months a year in advance sometime longer. Travel times have changed for sure.

[schad]

Originally Posted by Mudfrog

And, the fact that so many coming into RVing now days are buying cheap. Small travel trailers and entry level motorhomes are what's selling better these days. Most buyers have no interest in high dollar, quality built rigs. Cheap bling (outside tvs, remote controlled and bluetooth junk, led lighting) is what sells and even the entry level RVs have these.

My experience is that the RV'ing experience largely skipped GenX. Currently, it's largely Boomers and Millennials who are doing it. Of course, people in their 20s and 30s probably are not in the financial position to afford a luxury DP just yet. So they get what they can afford, which is more likely to be a towable or lower-end MH.

There's also the fact that high-end RVs (even towables!) tend to have floorplans tailored to couples rather than families. Even if you can afford a Cornerstone, for instance, you may still end up with an Aspire because otherwise there's no place for your young kids to sleep!

But this is all based on nothing more than what I've seen in campgrounds. Who knows if it's industry-wide.

[1Motorhome]

I find this very interesting!! I too hate the long advance booking times to get a Campsite in almost ALL campgrounds. I can still remember when calling a week ahead would get a choice site, yeah that was a long time ago!!! Now I have to book 18 months ahead and it's more of a take anything that's available.

Would not this be a good time for investors to look at building new Campgrounds? Even if the Campground fails after a few years, the land has increased in value in most cases, so they should be able to recoup their investment cost without any problem, and the profits from the good years would still be a good return on their investment dollars.

[Gary.Jones]

Remember how the entire industry fell flat on its face in 2008-2009 as there were damn few people who had enough scratch to buy a motorcoach, let alone use one..... I was losing more money in a month on my investments than I ever thought possible. Tens of thousands watched their nest eggs and retirement accounts lose 80% of their value in a years time. I was lucky. I was able to sit tight and just let everything come back up to where it was the day before the crash, and then, I took every dime out of anything that was not guaranteed return and essentially went cash only. Sure missed the climb since then, but I wasn't going to lose a lot of money again in this lifetime.

So, there are indications we may be going back to that terrible time. Debt is through the roof. Income is fairly stagnant for anyone who has not continued to stay in the market. I'm pretty sure I would not be making a heavy investment at this point. Yes, we need more good RV parks. Yes we need more nice RV parks at less than $100 - $140 a night.... not many years ago, those were deluxe hotel rooms in downtown Manhattan.... now you bring your own house, your own bed clothes and bathroom and laundry and RV parks think nothing of asking you to drop $120 a night on a few square feet of grass and a few bucks of electricity and water. What is gone are the nice places that you used to be able to find for $20 - $30 a night.

And we have never made a reservation more than a week in advance, and usually not more than 24 hours in advance. Do we get the pick of the park, definitely not. Do we take what we are offered and are happy to get what we are offered, Yes. Am I going to make a reservation for anywhere (even the Pearly Gates of Heaven) 12 to 18 months in advance..... I dont think. Am I OK with spending a night in WalMarts parking lot in a luxury diesel pusher.... you bet.

Roll with the punches.... change is the way the world works.

Gary

[lwmcguire]

We purchased at MHSRV in 2016 at 40% off manufacturers list price

It was a great price point on a new coach and all the coaches there were priced 35% off or more

Talking with the manager while waiting and asked him how many they sold per day and he said 8-12 units

Anyone who hasn't seen their operation should stop by, but beware you might have to stay overnight in your new Coach

[1Motorhome]

Originally Posted by Gary.Jones

Remember how the entire industry fell flat on its face in 2008-2009 as there were damn few people who had enough scratch to buy a motorcoach, let alone use one..... I was losing more money in a month on my investments than I ever thought possible. Tens of thousands watched their nest eggs and retirement accounts lose 80% of their value in a years time. I was lucky. I was able to sit tight and just let everything come back up to where it was the day before the crash, and then, I took every dime out of anything that was not guaranteed return and essentially went cash only. Sure missed the climb since then, but I wasn't going to lose a lot of money again in this lifetime.

So, there are indications we may be going back to that terrible time. Debt is through the roof. Income is fairly stagnant for anyone who has not continued to stay in the market. I'm pretty sure I would not be making a heavy investment at this point. Yes, we need more good RV parks. Yes we need more nice RV parks at less than $100 - $140 a night.... not many years ago, those were deluxe hotel rooms in downtown Manhattan.... now you bring your own house, your own bed clothes and bathroom and laundry and RV parks think nothing of asking you to drop $120 a night on a few square feet of grass and a few bucks of electricity and water. What is gone are the nice places that you used to be able to find for $20 - $30 a night.

And we have never made a reservation more than a week in advance, and usually not more than 24 hours in advance. Do we get the pick of the park, definitely not. Do we take what we are offered and are happy to get what we are offered, Yes. Am I going to make a reservation for anywhere (even the Pearly Gates of Heaven) 12 to 18 months in advance..... I dont think. Am I OK with spending a night in WalMarts parking lot in a luxury diesel pusher.... you bet.

Roll with the punches.... change is the way the world works.

Gary

Point well taken!!

[Matt D]

Gary, add us to the list of owners who recently made a shift.

Due to overproduction, our “old” 2017 Aspire deprecated at a staggering rate over the last year. Ironically, our old Phaeton has been holding pretty close to the valuation we sold it at in 2016, even today.

For the first few years, the pace of depreciation was expected, but the last year the valuation has gone down very fast. I think the book went down $60K in the last 6 months.

Add to that our recent expensive trip through the wringer with a Spartan/Rayco issue.

We decided to cut bait and move on.

This decision has been percolating for some time. Factors involved have included kids getting older, and job changes resulting in fewer opportunities to take extended 4-8 week trips. Add to that the financial feeling of being in literal free fall. Compounding factors are the complete lack of serendipity in travel, and the necessity to plan months and years out.

We found a buyer in Eastern PA. and delivered the coach last Tuesday.

We will certainly miss the mode of travel, but will explore other ways to spend time together.

I’m happy we were able to have the experiences we did, and am happy to move on. In the short term, we plan to scale way back to a towable and see what the next few years hold.

I feel Entegra lived up to their promise. We may reconsider Entegra at some time in the future, especially if they offer an alternative chassis option as Newmar does.

It’s impossible to turn off the Entegra forum, so you’ll likely see me around from time to time.

Best regards to all,

-Matt

[lowejug]

Originally Posted by brobox

JMO, but the large DP market is fueled by Baby Boomers. Many that started the run on RV's after the recession have aged out, healthy issues, and flat out got tired of having to make reservation a year in advance to go where they use to be able to go with a couple of weeks notice. All of these mentioned have been personal experiences with long time RV friends that have sold their MH's recently.

I second this also... it’s ridiculous to get a Rv spot usually without at least 1 month reservation.. at least in the west... this has definitely slowed are actual motor home usage down dramatically

Some can plan .. we just don’t... we are more spur of the moment
Vacationers ... it has been irritating the last couple of years and the wife and I have spoke this subject numerous times now...

[Ultratravler]

Matt, I am in the same boat as you. What I see as part of the problem is over build and lack of quality. It is really too bad that the consumer is the one to pay the price. It will be interesting to see what happens down the road a few years. Will there be a total down turn or just a slow down? I will be watching from the side lines.

Dave

[brobox]

Matt, congratulation on selling the coach. Hope you do stay around, your expertise is always welcomed. For the reasons you mentioned, it is understandable stepping down. By the looks of the market, many are agreeing with you.

[schad]

Originally Posted by Matt D

For the first few years, the pace of depreciation was expected, but the last year the valuation has gone down very fast. I think the book went down $60K in the last 6 months.

I would guess that Entegra's 2-year warranty props up the resale value of coaches less than 2 years old, but in that 3rd year it returns to "normal." That may explain the abrupt drop in valuation.

Sorry to see you go.

[Nowabeachbum]

The poor resale of Entegras is simply from the extraordinary discounts that you can get when new. Add to that the deep year end discounts from dumping excess production. It started in 2016 and hasn’t gotten any better. Our 2011 was purchased at 26% off after much negotiation! A new 2019 can now be purchased at more than 40 off! These discounts don’t seem to exist at Newmar and Tiffin. People that buy at the beginning of a year, lose almost 10% value.

As far as not planning trips are concerned, I think every type of travel is being effected. Traveling in general is more popular! Try scheduling a river cruise as an example. Most will be over a year out! Whether you want to or not, trip planning is now necessary!

[Gary.Jones]

Matt

Well, I am sorry to hear that you made the decision to drop out for a while and probably head into a smaller rig. I have always enjoyed your contributions when you have made them. However, all of us have to figure out when is the right thing to do whatever in life we get one chance to do. However, for some reason, I have been sensing that you were getting discouraged.... you could "feel" it in your posts.

And I can relate.... after we had been on the road a little less than 3 months this last time, Dee and I looked at each other and both just said "Lets go home". And I didn't say, but I could have said, "This is no fun". I am saying it out loud here, but have not said it out loud to Dee..

I am just sick of never ending problems that I have had to keep dealing with, and I've had less than satisfying interactions with Middlebury. Now I am having less than satisfactory interactions with Spartan.... Spartan is moving into the "weasel" category for me at this time. Its getting hard to find manufacturers who are much other than a pain in the ass when dealing with them. One of the things that actually was most annoying on this past trip was our inability to watch Sat TV the entire 3 months and trying to deal with on-demand, over-the-air television. We survived, but it just ground away at us the whole time. DirecTV is such a joke. Now I've spent some cash to change to Dish (which I've had at home) and my first couple of interactions with them have been reminiscent of my final interactions with Direct...

And I have lost more money on the motorcoaches I have owned over the past 7 years than I have lost before in my entire life..... I know the old saw about this "not being a wise investment, but a life style". When people start being unhappy with the "lifestyle", then that portends negative things. I hope not.... I have a ton of money invested in this "lifestyle". When I traded my Anthem, I was confronted with my book value dropping $10,000 a month, every month I held on to it.... That is hard to wrap my head around, but its happening again... I just haven't paid attention to it. Gary, I ordered my coach first week of February.... Ouch!

Maybe things will get better during the next planned trip. Its not reservations.... its carefree travel and dependability and ease of use...

Matt..... don't be a stranger.

Gary

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Nowabeachbum

As far as not planning trips are concerned, I think every type of travel is being effected. Traveling in general is more popular! Try scheduling a river cruise as an example. Most will be over a year out! Whether you want to or not, trip planning is now necessary!

I guess I have to agree with you. We did so much commercial fly with our business, we never wanted to see the inside of a plane after we retired. We bought our first DP in 03. I guess we got spoiled with so many years of easy traveling. The Boomer Boom had not started, the recession was unreal, pull into a 10 rating park, have your choice of sties in the $40. price range. I guess it is just hard for me to adjust to the "new method" of RV traveling. Make reservation a year in advance and be stuck with them if there is a major forest fire. There is no more plan B's on a short notice. We just have to change our method of travel, but I sure miss the "old days".