21dbs and Expedition

[subs_ta]

Hi All-

I have a 2019 Ford Expedition XLT Max 4x4 with the HD tow package:
Max Payload: 1767 lbs
Front GAWR: 3550 lbs
Rear GAWR: 4380 lbs

From the Ford towing guidelines for this model it notes:
Max hitch weight: 900 lbs
Max tow capacity: 9000 lbs

We like the ORV 21dbs quite a bit for our family of 4 (+ dog) with a total people weight (w/dog) of about 450 lbs.

I was wondering if anybody on the forums has a similar setup and has been able to keep the tongue weight down below 900 lbs with that travel trailer. From my reading of posts I see that the trailer is tongue heavy. Has anyone been able to make it work without too much trouble and has been able to keep safe?

Appreciate any feedback and sorry if this topic has already been covered elsewhere. I did hunt around on threads (but could have missed)...

Thx!

[Randy the sly old fox]

ORVs tend to be very tongue heavy to start with - by the time you fill the propane tanks and add batteries and fill the front storage area you have added at least 150 to 200 lbs to the published figure. I have not seen any body here or on other forums posting actual wts under 1000 lbs.

[subs_ta]

Originally Posted by Randy the sly old fox

ORVs tend to be very tongue heavy to start with - by the time you fill the propane tanks and add batteries and fill the front storage area you have added at least 150 to 200 lbs to the published figure. I have not seen any body here or on other forums posting actual wts under 1000 lbs.

Thx for that info. Sounds like with that minimal cargo it would hit 840 lbs given the specified dry hitch weight of 640 lbs.

That amount of cargo assumes an empty water tank?

Thx again.

[ricndot]

if you’re concerned about the hitch rating of your ford id look into an aftermarket receiver. but weigh your ford first. get the front and rear axle weights as loaded for a trip THEN do the math. and don’t believe the sales brochure or website for dry tongue weight. at least find the trailer on the lot and find the sticker inside the kitchen cabinet. good luck

[keymastr]

All I can tell you is my experience with my 2017 23 RBS which has a dry weight around 5600 pounds and a gross weight rating of 7500. The empty trailer has a hitch weight of about 750 pounds and with a reasonable load, not bulging, just an average amount for a week of camping the tongue weight is over 900 pounds. If we pack for 2 or more weeks the tongue weight is easily 1000 pounds.

Here's the thing though, I bought this trailer when I had a 2005 Expedition and although the engine and transmission were not as good as they are today by a long margin, the only power issues were the noise level as that engine really liked to rev on the hills. While it could have had more power it did well enough.

No, the real issue was the handling. Mine had the same payload capacity as yours and the factory tow package as well. I added E range tires and new shocks and still it was spooky on certain roads if there were grooves or wear depressions from truck tires. And going downhill and cornering you could really feel the trailer trying to push the back of the Expedition sideways.

I think it was a combination of things that made it less than ideal, to say the least. For one thing the Expedition has independent rear suspension rather than a solid axle like other trucks do. I think this allows the weight transfer to happen differently which gives it a great ride when people are being transported but not as solid when towing. The other thing is the suspension is a bit too soft, again great for people, and in the end you have to realize that you are towing something that weighs a significant amount more than the tow vehicle so it WILL get pushed around.

I cannot explain how much difference it made to tow the same trailer with a 3/4 ton truck with a solid rear axle. If needed I can go from the right lane to the far left lane 2 lanes over in about 3 truck lengths and not feel like the rig will tip over or spin out. Before evasive maneuvers were not really possible without serious pucker factor.

All this is not to say you can't do it. I am sure with careful loading you may be able to get all the weights to be under the ratings by just a little but make no mistake, it will feel like you are at the limit of it's capability because you ARE at the limit. Sometimes it's not a matter of can it but should it.

If you have to worry about taking a full water tank or putting groceries and beer in the bathroom to control tongue weight you already have too much trailer and it will only help a small amount. Removing tongue weight may actually make things worse.

[subs_ta]

Originally Posted by ricndot

if you’re concerned about the hitch rating of your ford id look into an aftermarket receiver. but weigh your ford first. get the front and rear axle weights as loaded for a trip THEN do the math. and don’t believe the sales brochure or website for dry tongue weight. at least find the trailer on the lot and find the sticker inside the kitchen cabinet. good luck

Thanks for the tips. I ended up heading over to the cat scale this afternoon to get my truck weighed and found that very helpful to know:
Steer Axle: 3140 lbs
Drive Axle: 3300 lbs
Total: 6440 lbs

Given the people (&dog) and camping equipment in the car added up to about 600 lbs and I only had a 1/4 tank of gas, the Ford published curb weight of 5794 lbs seems off by ~158lbs given my actual estimated curb weight (with full tank of gas) would be ~5952 lbs.

Anyways, give my Rear GAWR of 4380 lbs and the (3300+120 (3/4 tank of addl gas) = 3420lbs)) of existing weight, I should have ~960 lbs remaining.


Thanks for the tip about being able to find the actual hitch weight for the trailer being available on the unit itself (in kitchen cabinet area). Never knew that. Last time I looked at a 21dbs, I only looked at the sticker on the outside of the unit that only had the GVWR (7500) and Payload weight (1105).

[subs_ta]

Originally Posted by keymastr

All I can tell you is my experience with my 2017 23 RBS which has a dry weight around 5600 pounds and a gross weight rating of 7500. The empty trailer has a hitch weight of about 750 pounds and with a reasonable load, not bulging, just an average amount for a week of camping the tongue weight is over 900 pounds. If we pack for 2 or more weeks the tongue weight is easily 1000 pounds.

Here's the thing though, I bought this trailer when I had a 2005 Expedition and although the engine and transmission were not as good as they are today by a long margin, the only power issues were the noise level as that engine really liked to rev on the hills. While it could have had more power it did well enough.

No, the real issue was the handling. Mine had the same payload capacity as yours and the factory tow package as well. I added E range tires and new shocks and still it was spooky on certain roads if there were grooves or wear depressions from truck tires. And going downhill and cornering you could really feel the trailer trying to push the back of the Expedition sideways.

I think it was a combination of things that made it less than ideal, to say the least. For one thing the Expedition has independent rear suspension rather than a solid axle like other trucks do. I think this allows the weight transfer to happen differently which gives it a great ride when people are being transported but not as solid when towing. The other thing is the suspension is a bit too soft, again great for people, and in the end you have to realize that you are towing something that weighs a significant amount more than the tow vehicle so it WILL get pushed around.

I cannot explain how much difference it made to tow the same trailer with a 3/4 ton truck with a solid rear axle. If needed I can go from the right lane to the far left lane 2 lanes over in about 3 truck lengths and not feel like the rig will tip over or spin out. Before evasive maneuvers were not really possible without serious pucker factor.

All this is not to say you can't do it. I am sure with careful loading you may be able to get all the weights to be under the ratings by just a little but make no mistake, it will feel like you are at the limit of it's capability because you ARE at the limit. Sometimes it's not a matter of can it but should it.

If you have to worry about taking a full water tank or putting groceries and beer in the bathroom to control tongue weight you already have too much trailer and it will only help a small amount. Removing tongue weight may actually make things worse.

Thanks very much for taking the time to share your experience with me, especially your comments about trying to tow with an expedition with the independent rear suspension.

Was curious to know what kind of new shocks did you add to your expedition at the time? I was trying to have the local Ford dealer install some Bilstein 5100's I had purchased but they refused to reuse the spring perch from the original shocks. I'm going to need to try and ask another mechanic to see if they can do the install instead...

Anyways, your comments were very helpful as I am now trying to re-think the idea of getting an Outdoors RV given my existing TV. I just purchased the Expedition so while it would be great to get a 3/4 ton truck, I'm thinking we'll be looking into a lighter TT.

With an Expedition, do you believe a TT that has a GVWR of 6000 lbs would be more manageable even with the independent rear suspension (given the notes you provided about the handling challenges)? I do not see any Outdoors RV's that fall into that range but believe there are some other brands that fit that (i.e. Grand Design, Apex).

Thanks again!

[Randy the sly old fox]

To be honest I would be looking closer at 4-5000 lbs GVWR. I have had a similar experience to keymaster - towing an AF 22H with a real wt of around 5600 lbs with a 99 Tahoe - that rig had a solid rear axle and a 5.7L V8. That combo was barely OK on power and was a handful to drive. I also tried shocks and tires but that did not help. I struggled for two years until I could afford a 3/4T truck - that made a world of difference in handling and the 6.0L V8 and 4.11 rear end coupled to the 6sp really added to the power when climbing hills.

Now I have a 25RDS and a 2500 Diesel and love it.

You can't have too much tow vehicle.

[shane_the_ee]

I have a 4th Gen Expedition and the discontinued next-size-down ORV from the 21DBS. Are you willing to use a water bladder? If so, I think you can make it work. With a WDH, the issue is going to be tongue weight. The real world tongue weights on the 18CK/18DB and 21DBS are so insanely high because the fresh water tanks are just inside the front wall of the trailer (most manufacturers put them over the axles). If you don't mind using a water storage bladder, you could travel with the bulk of your fresh water in the bathtub and use a small 12V transfer pump to move it into the fresh tank once you arrive at camp.