Another case of black mold in an Outdoors RV

[TT_TR250RDS]

Here is a 2019 ORV 25RDS. Used at least twice a month all year long by 2 people and a dog, but nothing out of the ordinary. Located in the PNW, running a dehumidifier for a 2000sqft house all the time to keep humidity down at 40%. 3 maxx air vents (living room area, bathroom, bedroom). The trailer is never warmer than 60 degrees when we camp in the winter months.


I just found this issue because the bedroom maxx air vent control board went and I needed to replace it. I just happen to take a look under the silver bubble insulation above the pink fiber insulation out of curiosity. Needless to say, my heart sunk to my stomach when I saw it. (Sorry not the best pictures, but this is around the exhaust vent in the bedroom).

I am not even sure what to do at this point in time. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Dave Pelletier]

I'd suggest contacting ORV and perhaps keeping in touch with Matt to see what the resolution is in his case. You could have the mould tested (to ensure it's not the uber dangerous kind) and if it's limited to the areas around the vents, there are mould remediation sprays and if kept dry, it may not be a big problem. Bigger question is what can you do to keep it from reoccuring short of not using the trailer in the winter.


Dave

[TT_TR250RDS]

Originally Posted by Dave Pelletier

I'd suggest contacting ORV and perhaps keeping in touch with Matt to see what the resolution is in his case. You could have the mould tested (to ensure it's not the uber dangerous kind) and if it's limited to the areas around the vents, there are mould remediation sprays and if kept dry, it may not be a big problem. Bigger question is what can you do to keep it from reoccuring short of not using the trailer in the winter.


Dave

Thanks Dave, I have reached out to ORV as of today so waiting to hear back.

Now I am not an engineer or a builder but to me, it seems weird to have the silver bubble wrap above the fiberglass insulation. That to me seems like it is creating a vapor barrier that is, in turn, causing the issue from square one.

I would assume spray foam insulation would be the best option for this roof structure and small cavity, but I guess because of price and weight it is not done like that.

I am not even sure what my first steps should be for remediation. Even when we get back from our weekend or multi-week-long trips. We have an RV port where the trailer stays under cover, we plug it into power and keep a dehumidifier that is for a 2000sqft home running. The dehumidifier is always going even when on trips. We bring a generator for boondocking so we can keep that dehumidifier running.

[bneukam]

Everyone needs to take this seriously. It is a health hazard especially in a small space.

Personally, I wouldn’t go camping in any unit with this type of construction unless the roof has been inspected on a routine basis.

This is from water vapor getting into the attic. There is no barrier. Stop the water vapor, you’ll stop the mold growth.

Dehumidifier cannot remove water vapor as quickly as it’s produced.

[bneukam]

Originally Posted by TT_TR250RDS

Thanks Dave, I have reached out to ORV as of today so waiting to hear back.



Now I am not an engineer or a builder but to me, it seems weird to have the silver bubble wrap above the fiberglass insulation. That to me seems like it is creating a vapor barrier that is, in turn, causing the issue from square one.



I would assume spray foam insulation would be the best option for this roof structure and small cavity, but I guess because of price and weight it is not done like that.



I am not even sure what my first steps should be for remediation. Even when we get back from our weekend or multi-week-long trips. We have an RV port where the trailer stays under cover, we plug it into power and keep a dehumidifier that is for a 2000sqft home running. The dehumidifier is always going even when on trips. We bring a generator for boondocking so we can keep that dehumidifier running.

Even though the bubble wrap is a vapor barrier it is not continuous. So water vapor can still work it’s way around. Because of the bubble wrap the sheathing being insulated with it, is the coldest surface. Cold surfaces, and water vapor will equal mold.
But, yes it also can help hold the moisture in place. Vapor barriers should be placed on the conditioned side. This whole method that ORV uses is completely backwards.

By the look of yours I would work from the inside and treat the mold. Create a thermal block with spray foam on the bottom of the sheathing. Use webbing to reinstall the batts, and reinstall the interior board.

This will not only eliminate the mold problem but your trailer will perform better in winter, and summer conditions.

[camper8251]

I had bought a house where the bathroom wasnt properly vented and had the same stuff on the rafters...

I used Concrobium on it to clean it up. Spray it one and scrub it and it cleaned it up...

Unfortunately in this situation unless a remedy for the problem is found it will keep Happening...

Waiting for snow to melt to look at my TT....

[Dave Pelletier]

Originally Posted by bneukam

Even though the bubble wrap is a vapor barrier it is not continuous. So water vapor can still work it’s way around. Because of the bubble wrap the sheathing being insulated with it, is the coldest surface. Cold surfaces, and water vapor will equal mold.
But, yes it also can help hold the moisture in place. Vapor barriers should be placed on the conditioned side. This whole method that ORV uses is completely backwards.

By the look of yours I would work from the inside and treat the mold. Create a thermal block with spray foam on the bottom of the sheathing. Use webbing to reinstall the batts, and reinstall the interior board.

This will not only eliminate the mold problem but your trailer will perform better in winter, and summer conditions.

Yes the bubble wrap should be on the bottom rather than the top and it would need to be sealed and continuous if it was to act as a vapor barrier. One thing that has become clear is that there is also no air space (or at least not a consistent and continuous one) and everything is crammed in so ventilation is problematic.

I've spend quite a bit of time over the last few weeks looking at pictures and videos and I think air must be getting through some of the items in the ceiling such as the lights, wiring harness holes, etc.

It would be hard to do a good job on remediation from the inside IMO; I'd consider removing the roof mounted items, membrane (3 sides) and sheathing and working from the top. Closed cell spray foam at the ceiling level (maybe 3" thick) would give you a vapor barrier and give you an air space above that could be properly vented. you'd need to poly off the lights and other ceiling mounted items before spray foaming. I also think I would remove the AC ducting and just allow it to blow directly from the bottom of the unit - otherwise the duct should be insulated with 1" duct wrap c/w vapor barrier.

Thoughts?

Dave

[egwilly]

Here is a good article explaining vapor barriers in regards to house building standards. This would also hold for rv construction as well.
It might appear that ORV has the barrier on the wrong side for cold climates. It has to be continuous with no access to air leaks as noted by Dave P above.

Here: https://www.thebalancesmb.com/what-i...barrier-845075

[bneukam]

Dave-I was thinking if I had to do the work myself. Our friends used this method by cutting around the cabinets.

But definitely agree with you on leaving the top of the spray foam open with several other vents would help release the radiant heat in the summer months. Closed cell spray foam would be your continuous vapor retarder.[emoji106]

AC ducts would also have to make sure they are well covered, or removed, so you don’t get the same effect during the summer. Never understood why housing building codes say duct work in an attic has to be above the insulation. All mine are well wrapped and buried

I would also look into a PVC roofing membrane since you have to replace it. 96% solar reflection is a huge difference from TPO/EDPM.

[ColoradoRFL]

Originally Posted by TT_TR250RDS

I am not even sure what to do at this point in time. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I would spray “Mold Armor” on all those areas immediately. Of course, it has a strong odor and you will need to leave the trailer unoccupied for at least 1 week.

We used this product on an enclosed porch of a 100 year-old house we are remodeling. The brick was stained a dark green and black along with the ceiling. The mold literally went away in one night. I couldn’t believe how it turned everything back to the original colors without any cleaning like it was never there.

[ColoradoRFL]

We inspected our 2019 ORV Back Country today and everything looks good - no signs of mold. We did just spend a lot of time in the trailer during the recent Texas storms with the heat on constantly and have never used a humidifier.

It is also worth asking people whether they turn on the vent while taking showers. As a landlord, I effectively halted mold problems in bathrooms by connecting the fan directly to the light switch so the tenants can’t turn on the light without the exhaust fan coming on as well. We discovered in some well insulated newer KB Homes built townhouses that unless the exhaust fan is run during showers mold will appear on the walls.

[bneukam]

Originally Posted by ColoradoRFL

We inspected our 2019 ORV Back Country today and everything looks good - no signs of mold. We did just spend a lot of time in the trailer during the recent Texas storms with the heat on constantly and have never used a humidifier.

It is also worth asking people whether they turn on the vent while taking showers. As a landlord, I effectively halted mold problems in bathrooms by connecting the fan directly to the light switch so the tenants can’t turn on the light without the exhaust fan coming on as well. We discovered in some well insulated newer KB Homes built townhouses that unless the exhaust fan is run during showers mold will appear on the walls.

Inspecting is a very important key here. Everyone should be doing so.

Yes, bathroom fans are important, and are almost always undersized. A timer added to that fan is also important on rentals as it should run for 30 minutes afterwards.

Repaired a home once where a fiberglass shower insert missed a vapor barrier behind it before it was put in place. Two years later that whole outside wall had mold.

I’ve seen really well built homes that have been torn apart because of mold issues.

[ColoradoRFL]

Originally Posted by bneukam

Inspecting is a very important key here. Everyone should be doing so.......I’ve seen really well built homes that have been torn apart because of mold issues.

One point and a question,

1. The plastic “barrier” appears attached to the insulation so not meant to be sealed. Maybe use insulation with a paper backing instead of plastic?

2. I don’t know how to reach Matt but has anyone suggested to him heat treatment? Mold survives cold but not heat over 120 degrees. The advantage of a trailer is you can park it inside a paint bay and turn on some outdoor kerosene type heaters. Maybe an RV ready thermal vac would be a great business?

Pest control companies tent houses with bed bugs and other infestations for heat treatment so no reason they can’t tent a travel trailer as well. The trick is to stay below maybe 160 to avoid electronics damage but over 120 to kill off all the mold in one hour.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by keymastr

Foam core roof does not allow for ducting the air conditioner which is a must in larger luxury units. No way do I want a noisy AC going on and off all night above my head when I could switch to the one at the other end of the trailer and let it work through the ducts.

In both of the examples given they mentioned water pouring from a light fixture. If you have that much water in your attic space you either have no moisture control in the form of venting or dehumidifier or you have a leak. Either of those things can happen no matter what construction method is employed.

I am full time and we never have frost on windows, walls or anywhere else. No moisture dripping anyplace. No wet wood under the mattress or the back wall of the cabinets and we are in the Seattle area where typical humidity is between 70 and 95%. My indoor humidity is at 30% right now with an outside humidity of 86%.

If you boil water without using the vent fan or shower without using a good exhaust vent like a Maxx fan or Fantastic fan that moves enough air to actually pull the water vapor out then you are going to have issues, and if you live where there is already a lot of humidity in the air you MUST use a dehumidifier. Mine is a Vremi unit that is sized for a 4000 square foot home and pulls several gallons of water out of the air each day. If you are not controlling the moisture you will have issues.

I have a foam core roof and ducted air from the heat pumps. I live in WA state and have never used nor needed a dehumidifier. But it does help to have dual pane windows.