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Old 01-13-2025, 05:58 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by rarebear.nm View Post
Yes, that was Plan A. The BB 100AH are too tall to fit under the dinette seat. The 19MKS has what ORV calls a wall bed, like a Murphy bed that folds down over the dinette seats instead of a sofa. Thus the height under there is little shorter.


I had looked at possible getting some larger format batteries like the LiTime 270 AHr. They would fit under the seats. But after emailing the company they do not approve their batteries to run things like power tongue jacks or room slides. Voids the warranty. Besides not very excited about shelling a couple thousand for new batteries.
I install these laying down under vans. Should easily fit under a dinette booth style seat.
https://www.amazon.com/Litime-Blueto...bs_2_cp_t&th=1
With the 200 amp BMS it will outperform 2-100 amp batteries. It will also run a 1,500to 2,000 watt inverter. If your jack or slides are using less then 200 amps or you have 2, there is no problem. This will also start a "gas" genny.
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Old 01-13-2025, 06:49 AM   #30
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Learning oodles w/ this daily read...https://www.relionbattery.com/knowle...ny-orientation
  • Lithium batteries can be placed upright or on their sides.
  • Do not install batteries in a zero-clearance compartment, overheating may result. Always leave at least 4” of space around all sides and top of the battery
  • Keep any flammable/combustible material (e.g., paper, cloth, plastic, etc.) that may be ignited by heat, sparks, or flames at a minimum distance of two feet away from the batteries
  • The battery compartment and any material within two feet should be noncombustible
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Old 01-13-2025, 07:00 AM   #31
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Err, about that 2 ft rule (like Ghost Busters..."more of a guideline than a rule!"
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Old 01-13-2025, 08:14 AM   #32
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A number of good ideas passed here, there's probably more than one workable answer. An insulated compartment will go a long way towards minimizing the amount of heat you would need to add to keep batteries in their operating range. Doesn't have to be 90F, just above freezing is enough. Another way to get there from here is an insulated compartment, then circulate living space air through it. Doesn't have to be ducted heated air, even just ambient room air will be plenty warm enough with adequate exchange. Wouldn't take a lot, maybe even just an opening from the compartment to the living space would offer enough exchange to maintain a minimum temperature.

Edit: When building repeater systems for remote mountaintop sites the battery box of choice was an ice chest. They're inexpensive, impervious to acid, and decent thermal properties.

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Old 01-13-2025, 08:56 AM   #33
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On my 2020 26KVS I installed 3 heated BB's in the crawl through. Used the plastic centrix box that I had off the tongue that held 4 6 volt batteries. They fit inside the box with a little extra space which I filled with foam rubber to keep them in place. Turned on the heaters & was hunting 4th season here in Colorado down to 10* a few nights. I did wrap a old army below zero sleeping bag around the plastic container to keep the warmth in. Never had one problem keeping the batteries up even with the heaters turned on. Even though I only have one 170 Watt on the roof. Did run a generator in the evening when we were watching the one eyed monster. If the batteries are being used they tend to keep themselves warm with out the heaters being on very much. Unless you are constantly in 10 to 20 below zero weather I see no need to put heat in the pass through on heated BB batteries. If it happens to get severe cold start the generator plug in a electric heater in the pass through & shut the door turn the heater down on low & there you go.
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Old 01-13-2025, 09:50 AM   #34
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After a couple of email exchanges with LiTime they have now changed their public statement related to using their for jacks and slides, etc. I'm re-posting the first email and adding the second email says the opposite of the first.



Hello Fred,
Thanks for reaching out LiTime. This is Patty and I'll be here with your assistance.


We don’t recommend using our battery in a jack or slide because the starting ampere may exceed the BMS that can withstand.

Could you please provide the product link or specifications so we can check the compatibility?

Looking forward to your reply.
Best regards
Patty




--------------------------



Hello Fred,
Thanks for your reply.


We checked with our technical colleague, based on the current, you can use our 12V 280Ah battery for your tongue jack, (a Lippert Power Stance 3,500 lbs #813748. Fused at 30 amps.) .
onThe 12V 280Ah battery has a 200A BMS, can support a max load power of 2560W and deliver 3584Wh energy.


Best regards
Patty



I had a hard time believing that two 200 AH BMS in parallel could not handle a 30 amp motor. IMO their reply still leaves gaps and I question doing business for a company that has that hard of time providing correct information. Others get it right the first try.









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Old 01-13-2025, 09:53 AM   #35
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Wow, a lot of very useful information!

As Fred stated, heaters can be very dangerous with a weak design. I put one small 12V 25W silicone pad on top of wood bench and then a piece of foam rubber insulation over it. Surface temperature between pad was measured with digital thermocouple meter https://www.amazon.com/Thermometer-T...s%2C212&sr=8-6. Temperature was still rising when I turned it off at 250F after a short period of time! A small amount of energy can create high temperatures when insulated. This applies to ANY HEATER.

As far as covered/insulated wires. We have them in every home, car, camper, many devices. Proper sizing of wire and fuse for load make this pretty much a non-issue.

LiTime has only three batteries out of 60-80 that are rated for starting. https://www.litime.com/search?q=star...prefix%5D=lastThey also say to not use their batteries with “jacks” including front jack, leveling systems, have issues with hydraulic systems, …see discussion on starting on post #11. https://www.mygrandrv.com/threads/ju...oltage.111582/

Some manufactures say LFP can be placed in any orientation, but some say theirs can’t.

If anyone wants to discuss the mentioned LiTime issues, please start a new post to bring clear attention and not hijack this thread.
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Old 01-13-2025, 10:04 AM   #36
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Even though it won't be a perfect comparison I do have a very similar BB setup sitting in my driveway. Our Class C has a external battery box slung below the floor. I have already placed 3" blue board type foam all around it. Only 1 1/2" on the door interior.


I have plenty of WiFi based thermometers with 12 month logging. There are three BB 100AH batteries already installed in there. I'll turn on the internal heaters and setup a few thermometers and get some reasonable data. We may have enough cold weather still ahead in Santa Fe to test what I want. At the moment that RV is shut down and napping between winter trips.


It will take a while to encounter enough cold nights to get a decent data set, but I'll report back at some point.
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Old 01-13-2025, 11:01 AM   #37
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OP here:


What I'm really looking for are real tried solutions to the issue of keeping lithium batteries warm in the pass through of a 19MKS (21MKS) is setup the same.

In reality I would only need secondary heat with the internally heater BB batteries when the temps drops very low. The internal heaters will handle the needs down to about 13 F. So all that's really needed is raise the temperature of the space around the battery to something above 13 F and then let the internal system take over.


When I get my trailer in month or so, I'll place some recording thermometers in the pass through, outside and trailer's interior and compare temperatures and lag times are various winter temperatures.


As said I would love to get some comments on real world experience.
Sorry, I have no direct experience to help - but I think you have a good handle on it and I look forward to the info you get on the pass through temps.

Most people are able to put the batteries beneath their beds which is my eventual plan but in your case the pass through seems like the best choice - if I was putting my lithiums in the pass through, I'd consider raising the temp of the pass through space. Getting a supply air run from the furnace into the pass through may not be an easy task, so what about a simple transfer air set-up? a grill to allow conditioned air into the space and a small 12V fan to pull it out again - you may even be able to find a 12V reverse acting thermostat....or you can use a computer fan as a supply fan and have a grill on the other side to return the air - either way works. .....I own an HVAC company so this kind of thing interests me.



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Old 01-13-2025, 11:33 AM   #38
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I will not do the fine data collecting that Fred has planned but will leave from Colorado and going to Big Bend sometime in the next few weeks. Batteries will start in warm condition--either just brought from warm house or in heated box in camper the night before. I likely won't heat storage area with space heater overnight.

I will monitor battery temperature with its BT and use wifi thermometers in storage area (no spacing heating used) that communicate to truck cab. It is hard to decide what data to collect because I can just use insulated box or same with heaters.

It is surprising that main area of camper can start warm (won't heat camper until first night on road), then heat turned off and taken good distances, over mountain pass (Raton) with temperatures in the single digits part of the time and not worry at all about freezing water tanks/pipes/outdoor shower. Wifi sensors give a real peace of mind, and I would not have tried cold traveling (not winterized) wo any heating without them. I start with winterized camper on the annual Big Bend trips.

Added: First or second night has normal lows between 8F and 20F, so will be a great time to check temperature in storage with main part of camper heated--often with just a space heater or if boon docking when solar is limited, catalytic heater, w furnace coming on if inside temperatures hit 65F.
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Old 01-14-2025, 06:53 AM   #39
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Great, love to see your data.
Enjoy the javelinas...stayed in one of the cabins once but no javelina sightings.
Wish to go back camping in the TT autumn/winter, mtb'g and attend a 'star party' at the McDonald Observatory (have you?).
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Old 01-14-2025, 11:56 AM   #40
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Great, love to see your data.
Enjoy the javelinas...stayed in one of the cabins once but no javelina sightings.
Wish to go back camping in the TT autumn/winter, mtb'g and attend a 'star party' at the McDonald Observatory (have you?).
In the Rio Grande Village national park campground, we have seen Javelina every year and sometimes in our site. We are leaving Friday before temperatures in Colorado hit -5F. We only dry camp in park.

McDonald Observatory in Fort Davis was closed the one time we were in the state park, but may try again this year.

We did participate in the dark sky multiple telescopes viewing in the private campground in Marathon, about three years ago.
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Old 01-14-2025, 01:40 PM   #41
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Sweet!!
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Old 01-15-2025, 09:37 PM   #42
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After a couple of email exchanges with LiTime they have now changed their public statement related to using their for jacks and slides, etc. I'm re-posting the first email and adding the second email says the opposite of the first.
Hello Fred,
Thanks for reaching out LiTime. This is Patty and I'll be here with your assistance.


We don’t recommend using our battery in a jack or slide because the starting ampere may exceed the BMS that can withstand.

Could you please provide the product link or specifications so we can check the compatibility?

Looking forward to your reply.
Best regards
Patty




--------------------------



Hello Fred,
Thanks for your reply.


We checked with our technical colleague, based on the current, you can use our 12V 280Ah battery for your tongue jack, (a Lippert Power Stance 3,500 lbs #813748. Fused at 30 amps.) .
onThe 12V 280Ah battery has a 200A BMS, can support a max load power of 2560W and deliver 3584Wh energy.


Best regards
Patty



I had a hard time believing that two 200 AH BMS in parallel could not handle a 30 amp motor. IMO their reply still leaves gaps and I question doing business for a company that has that hard of time providing correct information. Others get it right the first try.









Fred--I missed this post because we were sending about the same time. This information is really good to see! I was only getting the first part from LiTime about being a problem per LiTime but finally an answer that makes more sense.

I have been beating that horse for a while. Thanks soooo much! Tim
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