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Old 03-20-2020, 11:17 AM   #1
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Lion Energy Lithium Phosphate Battery

I've been thinking that I would replace my two dying 12v batteries with two 6v this spring, but am being tempted to buy one of these instead. On sale for $699 at Costco online. Rated for 3,500 full discharge cycles.

https://www.costco.com/lion-energy-s...100535965.html
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Old 03-20-2020, 12:46 PM   #2
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You didn't include specs for any of the batteries.
I suspect you would have 200 or so amp/hrs with the two 6volt batteries.
If that's the case you would actually end up with maybe even a little less usage by going to the lithium.
Of course, if you never boondock (you didn't say) just put in a Walmart 12v and replace as needed.
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Old 03-20-2020, 12:58 PM   #3
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Lion Energy Lithium Phosphate Battery

Go to the lion energy web site and look at their info. If in fact it is what it should be , 200 amps of flooded batteries can be used down to about 50% on the high end. That would be 100 real useful amps in the example and the voltage drops the lower it goes A lithium battery can use virtually 100 % assuming a bms is used ... you canít use virtually all or it kills it. ( check with lion ) giving a useful full voltage of the full 210 amps doubling your useful power and getting the bonus of lithiumís fast charge rate all the way to full. Realistic you could replace 2 6 volt flooded at 220 +\-with 1 lithium 105 amp battery
I just got this email from Costco .. Iím not ready to switch yet but this looks like a worthwhile effort to at least get the hard numbers from lion the maker
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Old 03-20-2020, 01:06 PM   #4
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Youtube "Love your RV" Ray has done a few videos on this battery. Specs are here:
https://lionenergy.com/products/lion...-ut-1300#specs


I wish that was in Canada, I would probably have a couple new batteries in my RV this year.
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Old 03-20-2020, 03:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillJinOR View Post
Go to the lion energy web site and look at their info. If in fact it is what it should be , 200 amps of flooded batteries can be used down to about 50% on the high end. That would be 100 real useful amps in the example and the voltage drops the lower it goes A lithium battery can use virtually 100 % assuming a bms is used ... you canít use virtually all or it kills it. ( check with lion ) giving a useful full voltage of the full 210 amps doubling your useful power and getting the bonus of lithiumís fast charge rate all the way to full. Realistic you could replace 2 6 volt flooded at 220 +\-with 1 lithium 105 amp battery
I just got this email from Costco .. Iím not ready to switch yet but this looks like a worthwhile effort to at least get the hard numbers from lion the maker
The Lion Energy battery is rated at 105 Ah. I don't pretend to understand amps/volts/etc but it seems that this battery would give the same useful amp hours (useful battery juice) as two 210 Ah 6v batteries drawn down to their lowest recommended level of 50%. The advantages of the Lithium ion battery are lighter weight, longer life (much longer), near zero maintenance, and no need to trickle charge or remove from the RV during winter storage. Am I on track here?

My biggest question has to do with charging them. Not sure if the unit built into my 2013 ORV Wind River or my several-year-old solar controller are a good match for this battery. As I read it, they may not take the battery to the recommended 14.6v but maybe only 13.8v. Which wouldn't hurt the battery but also wouldn't give me full battery capacity. And I'm not ready to change out the built in charger in my TT...

Gotta decide soon, as this sale ends in a couple of days.
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Old 03-20-2020, 06:00 PM   #6
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If you have a WFCO converter, it may not work that well but then again, they don't work that well for flooded cells either. I just ordered a PD wildcat replacement converter assembly from bestconverter in order have better charging capability now for my current flooded cells and then it's capable of charging LiFeP04 batteries in the future. An external charger would also work to charge them. I have the Trimetric battery monitor and solar controller and the solar controller is capable of charging these batteries. Yes, one of the LION batteries would give you very close to same usable capacity if you practice the 50% depth of discharge rule. The LiFeP04 batteries charge much faster, don't have to be fully charged every few days to maintain capacity and almost maintenance free to name just a few of the advantages.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:07 AM   #7
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Agree about the WFCO. Also:

As I understand it, LiFeP batteries accept high charge rates at all SOCs. My Lead acids start tapering once they reach 80% or so (absorb mode when the V is held constant) and can take a long time to get them up to 100%.

Or never; in the afternoon, when you want to charge fully in preparation for the night, it can be irritating that not all the remaining sunshine is being used to charge the last 20%.

Apparently LiFeP don't taper much at all until the last few percent (unless the package becomes overheated?).
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:17 AM   #8
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You might look at this tear down...

https://youtu.be/eJaK7fJ4gQU

You might look at Renogy too...

https://youtu.be/aahHWaV6Zdk
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Old 03-21-2020, 09:21 AM   #9
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These batteries (at this price) are probably the single best battery value available today.

These are the updated 1330W units that truly will deliver 105Ah usable each. They are smaller than other batteries that use cylindrical cells (like Battle Born which are great batteries) and allow Lion to get the same power/storage in a smaller space (group 24 vs Group 31 for BB) this also makes the batteries 30% lighter than BB as well.

I have had 8 of them in my class A Diesel pusher for about 3 months with a total of 840Ah of storage. The BMS in them is rock solid and they only weigh 23lbs.

Mine charge just fine and very quickly with my existing 19-year-old battery charger set for AGM batteries (Closest profile). If your converter can't handle the charging it is not a big deal to upgrade.

Once you have LifePO4 batteries you will wonder how you coud ever live with Lead Acid (including AGM) batteries again
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Old 03-21-2020, 09:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisher99 View Post
The Lion Energy battery is rated at 105 Ah. I don't pretend to understand amps/volts/etc but it seems that this battery would give the same useful amp hours (useful battery juice) as two 210 Ah 6v batteries drawn down to their lowest recommended level of 50%. ....
When two 6V batteries are put in series to make 12V, the amp hours stay the same, the voltage adds to make 12V. When you put 12V batteries in parallel you add the amp hours together, the voltage stays the same. So having two of the Lion Energy batteries in parallel will give you over 200A/H of usable energy at 12V. Hope this helps.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRum View Post
You might look at this tear down...

https://youtu.be/eJaK7fJ4gQU

You might look at Renogy too...

https://youtu.be/aahHWaV6Zdk

Really good information, the only caveat is the review on the LION battery is the discontinued UT1200, not the current and on sale at Costco UT1300. I'm leaning towards the Renogy due to good to great reviews and distribution/warranty in Canada and last Black Friday, they went on sale for a very good price. I'm not in a hurry to upgrade, just getting TT prepped for the time when it will happen. Current upgrade status, Renogy 2000 Inverter, GoPower TS-30 in hand and PD Wildcat has shipped so I have enough to keep me busy for the next while.


Yes Brulaz, that is a significant reason for me to upgrade to LiFeP04, may even upgrade the battery for my trolling motor at some point, just have to pace myself or she may find out.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:11 AM   #12
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I highly recommend that anyone interested in Lithium batteries subscribe to Will Prowse's Youtube channel. Will is the reviewer who's review of the Lion 1200 battery was posted previously in this thread. There's a lot to learn about these batteries and the associated differences from lead acid batteries. He also covers solar:

https://www.youtube.com/user/errolprowse/featured
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Old 03-21-2020, 12:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Luv2go View Post
When two 6V batteries are put in series to make 12V, the amp hours stay the same, the voltage adds to make 12V. When you put 12V batteries in parallel you add the amp hours together, the voltage stays the same. So having two of the Lion Energy batteries in parallel will give you over 200A/H of usable energy at 12V. Hope this helps.
So my question is this: Two 6v batteries rated at 210 ah each gives a total of 210 ah. But you are only supposed to draw a 6v battery down to about 50%, so does that mean that you only have a useable 105 ah (give or take) with two 6v batteries? And thus a single 105 ah Lion Energy battery would give the equivalent usable ah since you can draw it down to zero?
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Old 03-21-2020, 01:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by fisher99 View Post
So my question is this: Two 6v batteries rated at 210 ah each gives a total of 210 ah. But you are only supposed to draw a 6v battery down to about 50%, so does that mean that you only have a useable 105 ah (give or take) with two 6v batteries? And thus a single 105 ah Lion Energy battery would give the equivalent usable ah since you can draw it down to zero?
A lead acid battery can be drawn down well below 50 % and still deliver usuable voltage and current. The battery life in terms of charge discharge cycles is reduced, though. An occasional discharge below 50 % is OK IMHO.

I'd size batteries so that the times you draw below 50 % is limited to 20 times a year or less. Let's say you draw down to 25 % 20 times a year. You'll shorten the total life of the batteries from 5-6 years to about 4-5 years.

To get these lifetimes you have to do other things like do desulfation of Lead Acid batteries. This can be done with a 15 volt 2 hour equalizing charge once every month or two, or by installing a pulse type battery desulfator across them.

I'd size Lithiums to handle those worst case amp-hours situations. The Lithiums will discharge down to around 5% and then their Battery Management System will totally shut them off. So you in effect fall off a cliff when using Lithiums.
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