Newbie with towing questions

[LearningMore]

Hi Larry,

I researched quite a bit as you are doing and decided 1) my dream trailer was the 22FQS and 2) I needed the big boy truck to tow. I found a used F250 with only 11K miles and bought it, then found the Anniversary 22FQS a 2.5 hour drive away and snagged it. NO regrets on either decision.

I have logged a bit over 4K miles now and I cross the Sierras on a regular basis. I have towed in high and gusty winds. Very stable, though I did hold off driving when gusts through Tehachapi were forecast at 55 mph last month.

I have not yet weighed at a CAT scale, but our local transfer station, AKA, the dump has a scale. Here are some sample weights from a weigh there last year with my truck and trailer.

Truck had full gas tank, unloaded bed, but has an aluminum bed cover, one driver, no passenger. Trailer had full propane, 2 batteries, no camping trip gear, but was filled with usual supplies. Fresh water was 1/3 full. Black and grey tanks were empty.

Weight truck alone, no trailer attached - 7160
Truck w/trailer attached- 8220
Truck + trailer on scale - 15080
Tongue weight = 8220 - 7160 =1060 lbs

2019 Ford F250, 6.2L V9 gas, 3.73 gears GCWR 19,500 Maximum loaded trailer weight = 12,500 lbs

Attached is a copy of one label showing weights. I believe there is another sticker that has weights on it, but I don't have a pic of that andAttachment 329922 my trailer is in storage until the next trip.

[4everlooking]

Thanks for the response and attachment. It showed up finally. This type of info helps me to decipher what direction I must go.

[4everlooking]

To the OP: don't kid yourself. You will use the pickup bed. Count on it.

I'm sure that you are correct, but a guy can dream can't he?

[4everlooking]

After going over the report from LearningMore, it tells of a tongue weight of 1060#. The brochure shows tongue weight for Titanium of 695#, therefore 395# extra. Since that is the real world case, My question is Would that same approximate difference be anticipated with the other two trailers which have tongue weights of 635 & 650?

I've never checked on trailer tongue weight before in previous trailers, so how much difference would appear to the truck with 60# less tongue weight?

I've had a payload of over 1200# in the truck last year. It handled it okay, but I could tell it was there. If tongue weight is my determining factor, 1000# +/- is doable. I realize that the total weight is a major concern also, so lighter is better. Sorry for the dumb questions, just trying to get it clear in this foggy brain.

[mistercee]

Originally Posted by 4everlooking

After going over the report from LearningMore, it tells of a tongue weight of 1060#. The brochure shows tongue weight for Titanium of 695#, therefore 395# extra. Since that is the real world case, My question is Would that same approximate difference be anticipated with the other two trailers which have tongue weights of 635 & 650?

I've never checked on trailer tongue weight before in previous trailers, so how much difference would appear to the truck with 60# less tongue weight?

I've had a payload of over 1200# in the truck last year. It handled it okay, but I could tell it was there. If tongue weight is my determining factor, 1000# +/- is doable. I realize that the total weight is a major concern also, so lighter is better. Sorry for the dumb questions, just trying to get it clear in this foggy brain.

Pretty much, I'd think. I'd just stick to the '13% of trailer GVWR' rule of thumb for calculating tongue weight as there is no way to know for sure unless you have the trailer loaded up and scale the rig. The 13% rule will at least get you in the ballpark for any trailer you are looking at.

Remember, dropping 1000 lbs + 100 for a hitch on the truck leaves you only 309 lbs of payload for all people, pets, gear etc. in the truck.

Doing the numbers with the formula:

Available payload - (weight of: occupants, gear in the truck, 100 lbs for WDH) / 0.13 = Max trailer weight

.....returns the MAX trailer weight. If you go to a 6,992 pound trailer and load it up as such you will have used all available payload....there is no safety margin built in.

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by 4everlooking

After going over the report from LearningMore, it tells of a tongue weight of 1060#. The brochure shows tongue weight for Titanium of 695#, therefore 395# extra. Since that is the real world case, My question is Would that same approximate difference be anticipated with the other two trailers which have tongue weights of 635 & 650?

I've never checked on trailer tongue weight before in previous trailers, so how much difference would appear to the truck with 60# less tongue weight?

I've had a payload of over 1200# in the truck last year. It handled it okay, but I could tell it was there. If tongue weight is my determining factor, 1000# +/- is doable. I realize that the total weight is a major concern also, so lighter is better. Sorry for the dumb questions, just trying to get it clear in this foggy brain.

Before making an assumption like this I would recommend that you load up the truck with full fuel and all passengers/cargo you would expect to have onboard when towing and then run it over a CAT scale. Subtract the weight of the loaded truck from the GVWR of the truck and you'll have an accurate number of how much payload is left for tongue and weight-distributing hitch weight - no guessing or estimating at that point. Having 1000lb in the bed of the truck vs a tall heavy trailer with a very large side area hanging off the rear delivers very different handling and control characteristics which is why you see recommendations to allow for a margin on the limits to better handle and control the combination.

I would suggest expanding your search to look at other trailers with similar layout to the 22FQS/21RBS but are a little lighter. Take a look at the Lance 1995 which has a GVWR of 6200 and estimated tongue weight of ~800 or perhaps the Lance 2285 which has a GVWR of 7000 and estimated tongue weight of ~900. Lance is a very well built trailer and was on our shortlist when we were looking to upgrade.

[4everlooking]

Originally Posted by mistercee

Pretty much, I'd think. I'd just stick to the '13% of trailer GVWR' rule of thumb for calculating tongue weight as there is no way to know for sure unless you have the trailer loaded up and scale the rig. The 13% rule will at least get you in the ballpark for any trailer you are looking at.

Remember, dropping 1000 lbs + 100 for a hitch on the truck leaves you only 309 lbs of payload for all people, pets, gear etc. in the truck.

Doing the numbers with the formula:

Available payload - (weight of: occupants, gear in the truck, 100 lbs for WDH) / 0.13 = Max trailer weight

.....returns the MAX trailer weight. If you go to a 6,992 pound trailer and load it up as such you will have used all available payload....there is no safety margin built in.

Thats kinda where I'm looking at. I firmly believe in safety margins, usually far exceeding what most people believe in. After working 40 yrs in industrial construction, I have learned the rule to build it better and not cut corners. Right now, my truck is the cut corner Just not sure I am ready to take a tremendous beating on a 1 yr old truck that is great for me in all other aspects. Decisions, decisions. At least I have time.

[4everlooking]

Originally Posted by ttavasc

Before making an assumption like this I would recommend that you load up the truck with full fuel and all passengers/cargo you would expect to have onboard when towing and then run it over a CAT scale. Subtract the weight of the loaded truck from the GVWR of the truck and you'll have an accurate number of how much payload is left for tongue and weight-distributing hitch weight - no guessing or estimating at that point. Having 1000lb in the bed of the truck vs a tall heavy trailer with a very large side area hanging off the rear delivers very different handling and control characteristics which is why you see recommendations to allow for a margin on the limits to better handle and control the combination.

I would suggest expanding your search to look at other trailers with similar layout to the 22FQS/21RBS but are a little lighter. Take a look at the Lance 1995 which has a GVWR of 6200 and estimated tongue weight of ~800 or perhaps the Lance 2285 which has a GVWR of 7000 and estimated tongue weight of ~900. Lance is a very well built trailer and was on our shortlist when we were looking to upgrade.

I like your idea of weighing the truck but right now, I am uncertain of exactly what i will need/want to take. However, at the end of June, I am renting a small coachman to take to Estes Park. It weighs a lot less that the ORV but I can scale it w/truck, passengers etc and get a reasonable determination of my payload.

As stated in my previous post, it seems that the truck is my Achilles heel for towing an ORV. I have to decide whether to keep it & find an appropriate tow vehicle, or trade for one. Both involve a blood letting for sure. The wife did say however, "Whatever makes you happy, just do it." And no she was not on medication or alcohol at the time. She wants my retirement to be good for both of us. What a gal

I will investigate the Lance line of trailers. There are a few pluses and minuses for me however.

On the plus side: The trailers are lighter and have a lower profile. There are 3 dealerships within 175 miles of my house. There is a used one (2017 2115) coming in for sale from the dealership 100 miles from the house. Easy drive.

On the minus side: My concerns for how it is built compared to the ORV. How are the sidewalls, roof, insulation etc. In all the major systems it has smaller units, AC, HEATER, HOT WATER etc. It doesn't appear to have the under frame and suspension in the same league. A big thing for me, and maybe I'm just missing something, I haven't located information on how it is built, with the exception of a 3D drawing on the website. That doesn't impress me at all. As near as I can tell by casually looking, it looks similar to a Jayco which costs 1/3 the money. ORV shows how it is built, the reason for the way it's built and the quality of materials in which it is built.

When I was searching for my MH, I took the advice from the wise ones from its forum. "Buy your last coach first, instead of wasting a lot of time and money working your way up." It was great advice for me then, I still believe it is great advice now. That being said, perhaps I will be able to find the answers for Lance trailers which will satisfy me and my needs. But at this point, in my opinion, ORV has set the bar high for measurement. Perhaps I'm over critical, but going back to my days running industrial jobs, not cutting corners is still very important to me.

Remember, Your Mileage May Vary.

Thanks again for your insightful responses. Keep them coming.

Larry

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by 4everlooking

I like your idea of weighing the truck but right now, I am uncertain of exactly what i will need/want to take. However, at the end of June, I am renting a small coachman to take to Estes Park. It weighs a lot less that the ORV but I can scale it w/truck, passengers etc and get a reasonable determination of my payload.

As stated in my previous post, it seems that the truck is my Achilles heel for towing an ORV. I have to decide whether to keep it & find an appropriate tow vehicle, or trade for one. Both involve a blood letting for sure. The wife did say however, "Whatever makes you happy, just do it." And no she was not on medication or alcohol at the time. She wants my retirement to be good for both of us. What a gal

I will investigate the Lance line of trailers. There are a few pluses and minuses for me however.

On the plus side: The trailers are lighter and have a lower profile. There are 3 dealerships within 175 miles of my house. There is a used one (2017 2115) coming in for sale from the dealership 100 miles from the house. Easy drive.

On the minus side: My concerns for how it is built compared to the ORV. How are the sidewalls, roof, insulation etc. In all the major systems it has smaller units, AC, HEATER, HOT WATER etc. It doesn't appear to have the under frame and suspension in the same league. A big thing for me, and maybe I'm just missing something, I haven't located information on how it is built, with the exception of a 3D drawing on the website. That doesn't impress me at all. As near as I can tell by casually looking, it looks similar to a Jayco which costs 1/3 the money. ORV shows how it is built, the reason for the way it's built and the quality of materials in which it is built.

When I was searching for my MH, I took the advice from the wise ones from its forum. "Buy your last coach first, instead of wasting a lot of time and money working your way up." It was great advice for me then, I still believe it is great advice now. That being said, perhaps I will be able to find the answers for Lance trailers which will satisfy me and my needs. But at this point, in my opinion, ORV has set the bar high for measurement. Perhaps I'm over critical, but going back to my days running industrial jobs, not cutting corners is still very important to me.

Remember, Your Mileage May Vary.

Thanks again for your insightful responses. Keep them coming.

Larry

Lance has a good factory tour video on their website - you can find it here. It's about 25 minutes long and will give you a very good overview of how they do things - both in construction techniques and materials used. There are also some other links with construction information under the "Discover" menu on the main web page. Also, if you look at the list of videos on their youtube playlist there are several more detailing additional features and construction such as wiring, heated holding tanks and valves, Liteply and heating systems.

Having owned a Jayco I can say that Lance is a significant increase in quality, construction techniques and materials. I consider them to be one of the few high quality units. Jayco might be slightly better than average in my opinion. One of the things that ultimately dropped the Lance off our list is relatively minor - we wanted a unit with a tub and it seems that Lance only installs showers.

You might still consider weighing the truck with just yourself and a full tank of fuel. That would give you an accurate base weight to work from as you estimate your potential loading scenarios and further refine the estimated amount of payload left for tongue/hitch weight.

[4everlooking]

Thanks for the links. I'll be researching them thru the upcoming days. Good idea about weighing the truck with just me. All information in advance will undoubtedly prove helpful for me.

[Cumminsfan]

You won't take a beating on trading in your truck. Used truck prices are through the roof stupid right now. I would venture that you could sell it for what you paid for it or maybe a little more or less or even get that on trading in.
You may not get the exact new truck you want but if you're not picky there's enough to choose from.

Lance is as good or better than ORV. I own an ORV 25RDS and I don't find anything exceptional about it. Yes it does have a heavier duty frame and suspension but all that's needed because everything else is heavier than normal.

Lance doesn't need 16" tires and a stiff frame because it weighs less and is built totally different. Both Lance and ORV are good trailers but tend to be geared to different styles of camping. Not that you can't crossover with either but the higher ground clearance and larger tanks make the ORV a little better for boondocking or dry camping.
If you're sitting an a CG with FH then either works well.

CCC on the ORV is also higher allowing you to haul more inside. Downside to that is that makes the TW even more. With a Lance you'd be able to haul more in your truck because the TW won't eat up as much payload.

JMO and BTDT with a 7200 lb 31' TT and a 1/2 ton truck I would never do it again. I had 1857 lbs for payload but it wasn't all that big of a deal when you factor in the 7200 lbs wagging the tail.

You'll pay more for the Lance but if or when you resell you'll geta lot of it back.
Lance also uses foam insulation throughout so you won't have mold issues if you get a leak. The also use Azdel in the exterior walls so delam is almost totally eliminated.

Lots to ponder.

[bneukam]

If your looking at a used Lance, I would want a 2017.5 model year, or higher, as they updated the frame. Then in 2019.5 model year they increased the axel ratings, and 15” tires. Our Lance has a 4” lift, and have no issues on back roads.

Agree with cumminsfan, as many like to compare ORV, and Lance, but they are built to serve a different purpose. Different materials, and different methods.

Both have their pros, and cons.

[Dave Pelletier]

Originally Posted by 4everlooking

Thats kinda where I'm looking at. I firmly believe in safety margins, usually far exceeding what most people believe in. After working 40 yrs in industrial construction, I have learned the rule to build it better and not cut corners. Right now, my truck is the cut corner Just not sure I am ready to take a tremendous beating on a 1 yr old truck that is great for me in all other aspects. Decisions, decisions. At least I have time.

As I said before; beware of confirmation bias! .....I know you really want to tow the trailer you want with the truck you have....but it's a mistake. Personally, I'd suck it up and upgrade the truck but if not, you need to be looking at much smaller and lighter trailers....not what you want to hear, I know. In fact I believe that if you did buy this trailer and tow it with your 1500 that you'd be upgrading anyway very soon....

I'd buy a Lance if it met my needs and I think they make a good unit but if I had to buy a new trailer today, I'd buy the same ORV I bought. Lots of choices out there.

Good luck,
Dave

[4everlooking]

Been doing my due diligence today. I watched all of the Lance video's. There were some things I liked and some I didn't. Since I can't put hands on right now, I can only judge by the video's. I'm not sold on the lighter frames, thinner walls, and roof of the Lance. I guess that I'm old school in many aspects. I know in structural buildings, thicker heavier usually means more stiffness and rigidity. I realize with modern engineering that cutouts, bends and angles will make a unit stiff under most circumstances, many of todays cars are built this way. But I also know that when one part of the system fails, catastrophic results happen very quickly.

That being said, I believe that a larger truck may be in line, IF and thats a big IF, an appropriate trade in can be done. The wife said if the payments were the same, go for it. After researching between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, the price point isn't very far off from each other. The payload difference is however quite substantial. This would open up the possibility of different floor plans, including 5th wheel units.

Any comments are truly appreciated. I want to make the best choice possible for us, and I rely heavily on the continued good advice from those of you who have gone before me.

thanks in advance,
Larry