Researching a move from a Keystone Passport to ORV/Nash

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by polarbill

Mary, thank you for the detailed response. It is very helpful and confirming what is driving me to look at ORV/Northwoods. I wish we would have stopped at the factory when we passed it twice on our trip to the tetons.

Apache in Everett is where I bought my passport and who I would likely buy my next trailer from. Don is who we worked with. My drive to it is a bit shorter than yours. I think mine is 8 miles

We bought our 2019 23DBS from Don at Apache in Everett. Good experience and we were quite happy with them. Unless you are going to order your unit without optional features I believe Apache automatically adds most of the available options for the ORV units by default which means that units sitting on their lot are going to be a bit heavier than the dry weight listed on ORV's web site. At least that is what they were doing in 2019 when we bought. The reasoning is that most folks ask for these options so we'll just order them that way to begin with. Based on the sticker data for our 23DBS - 9995 GVWR minus stickered CCC of 2726 indicates an as-delivered dry weight of 7269. Our average tongue weight is 1200 and average loaded trailer weight is ~8250-8500. Given how close the fresh water tank is to the front axle a full tank doesn't add that much to the tongue weight which does help. Still, we are averaging over 14% tongue weight and that is with a bit of heavier items loaded in the rear storage under the bottom bunk.

[Dave Pelletier]

Originally Posted by polarbill

Thank you Dave. A couple questions for you and others as well as comments to check sanity. I have read that the tongue weights are heavy on these and that even the 23DBS most people say 3/4 ton. That said I had to look at the math and think about how we have used our current trailer.

Since I am not a total newbie to towing a travel trailer I feel like I know how we will use it and pack it. While I know people say use the GVWR for calcing tongue weight it doesn't make sense to me for a few reasons.
1) at most we will have 1000# of stuff in the trailer (not including propane, water, batteries).
2) In 3 years I have traveled with more than ~20 gallons of water in my front tank 1 time. Not saying it wouldn't be nice or would never happen but I feel like I know how I would use. we are weekend warrior campers that like full hookups or at least water.

so taking a mountain 23DBS at a weight of 6350 (I wouldn't add much if any options) + 1000 pounds of stuff + 60# propane + 130# for batteries + 224# (1/3 tank of water) puts me at 7764#. 13% tongue weight makes that 1009# which gives me ~800# of room for family, and stuff in the truck. I didn't add the weight of the Equalizer as it should put most of it's own weight back into the trailer. This may put it slightly over the hitch rating (1050 with wds) but keep me under or very close to GVWR. It sounds like it may take attention to loading to actually get 12-13% loaded (by loading heaving items in rear storage (love that mine currently has this as it makes it easier to load the rear) but should be possible. I am way out in left field on this assumption? I totally would love a 3/4 ton or bigger and know the half ton is right at it's limits (payload, rear axle and hitch capacities) but it seems doable.

Totally agree with 2 and that is why I am not upset. I knew going in I was buying a POS. I don't actually understand how they can build a 34 foot rolling condo with all the stuff they do for 25K let alone for whatever it actually costs them to have margin for the manufacturer, marketing, Warranty, dealer margin, etc... It really blows my mind.

#3 is the reason I am attracted to ORV/Northwood.

You aren't a newbie but I spent a ton of time talking to people and doing my research because I wanted to buy an new F150 EB to tow my 21RBS with. (The 21RBS is rated at 8150 GVWR) and I spoke with several people towing them with half tons and they all either said that they plan on replacing their trucks with 3/4 ton or 1 tons or wish they would have bought one in the first place.

I think the Creekside units are at the upper limit of any half ton's capacity and all the Timber Ridge units (16" tires, 5100 lb axles, 8" frames, 10gall water heaters, 8 cu ft. fridges, etc.) should be towed with 3/4 tons or better.

Even if you keep everything at the minimum; you'll be pushing the payload. On my trailer, 90% of the storage is forward of the axles with most of it being at the very front or under the front bed. My tongue weight is closer to 18% and I'd suggest you plan on 15% minimum which would be closer to 1200lbs. even with a very healthy half ton payload of 1800 lbs, you are now at 600 lbs and you need to deduct for the hitch at around 150lbs so now you are down to 450lbs.......now I don't know how many people are in your family or how big you are but that's not much. I have a 120lb wife and a 10lb dog and no kids - I weigh 200 lbs naked so that's about 350lbs with no other passengers and my cooler would easily put me over payload with your TV even before placing a single thing in the bed.

AND if you somehow manage to keep it all under the GVWR of your truck, it still won't tow anywhere near as well as a 3/4 ton truck will do.

You sound like you have an open mind - which is paramount; I'd caution you to avoid confirmation bias where 95 people tell you it's a bad idea but one guy says it's fine and you ignore the 95 'cause the one answer is the only one you want to hear! happens alot.

For reference I have 8 trucks and 7 trailers currently; two are half tons, one 3/4 ton, four 1 ton SRW's and 1 3500 dually. Trailers range from 1500 lbs to 12,000 lbs. I personally won't tow (or at least not fast or far) much more than 6,500 lbs or 24' with my half tons.

My 21RBS is 3' shorter and 810 lbs lighter (dry) and though I've decided a 3/4 ton is the minimum I'm comfortable with, it is towable by a well spec'd half ton if one is very careful with the load.......but I definitely wouldn't go any bigger than my trailer with a half ton.

2 cents,

Dave

[Cumminsfan]

I agree with Dave, we had a 2010 F150 Screw XLT 5.5 bed, 4x4 Max Tow with 1857 CCC.
Our TT was a Northtrail @30'10" and 72-7300 lbs loaded.
I used an EQ with 4 pt sway for the better part of two seasons. It was a handful in all but ideal conditions.
The F150 had LT Michelins, Rancho 9000XL's and Super springs on the rear. I had a canopy on it and loaded pretty good. I was at 4000 lbs on the rear. RAWR was 4050 lbs. Truck scaled out close to it's 7650 GVWR so in a sense it weighed almost as much as my 12 Ram 2500 so at least I had some good mass to control the TT with.
It was still a 2 handed affair when running the freeway around semi's and in side winds.

On my last season I'd had enough and didn't want to get a different truck yet so I found a used Hensley Arrow WDH for $950. Best thing since lighted RV stove knobs
It made the truck and TT a solid setup. Semi's and wind no longer were a concern.
It towed as solid as my next trailer which was a 5th wheel.

If you can keep you weights down and be diligent then going big with an HA or Pro Pride would solve your 145" WB 1/2 ton issue.

What finally took me over the edge was the 5.4 6sp and 3.73 gears. What a dog and possibly the worst trans ever for towing.

Point being if you're dead set on the 23DBS and you think you can make the weights work then IMO a premium hitch is the way to go. It will however add more weight to the tongue so it may or may not make weight things worse.

[Vintage465]

To answer your initial question.....What drove us to ORV.............it was the big window in the back of our 20fq. We really were in the market for a "floor plan" that also had aluminum frame and laminated walls. We weren't really aware of the big difference the Elkhart Indiana group and Northwood and ORV.......I figured they are all junk on one level or another.........but we like travel trailers! I will agree with and earlier response stating these aren't built with the same level of expertise and attention to detail that new car is. I have had some staples work loose and have found a few screws holding onto air. But overall, I'll keep my ORV and if I got another coach it'd be an ORV or Northwood.

[trikebubble]

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan

The Passport is a lower end but not bottom end TT. I think if you jumped up to a Cougar or Wildcat for instance you'd be more on par with ORV/NW. You wouldn't have that cheap feeling.
.

We must have been looking at completely different Cougar trailers when shopping a few months ago. We looked at multiple brand new Cougars and they were utter garbage. Honestly, I was embarrassed to even be looking at them. Their were staples coming thru trim, most trim mitres were not sanded smooth, in 2 new Cougar trailers the wide trim that borders the slide out was literally hanging and falling and bowing off. Doors woukd not close, lights and switch plates were attached haphazard, not square or plumb. The walls were paper thin, you could see the touch up paint over all the staples. This was in different 45K+ Cdn brand new travel trailers. It was actually a little insulting that an RV dealer would even offer something so poorly constructed for sale. My Wife and I spent a lot of time looking, just to make sure their were no viable alternatives to the ORV 25rts we had also looked at, and nothing even came close. I saw one Nash and one Arctic Fox that were decent, they were the only 2, aside from the ORV products that even deserved to be called a travel trailer. I was astonished at the overall lack of care, quality, finishing, and construction, we witnessed in the vast majority of trailers we saw. I could not imagine spending 45K + on any of those other trailers. We had been enjoying our Four Wheel Camper for the 4 years previous, and I based in its great quality and experience with it, I was a little naive in thinking all RV's woukd be even close to something resembling quality of construction. I'm 110% satisfied with our decision, I can't think of any other new brand trailer I would have considered if the ORV was not available.

[4ina4x4]

Originally Posted by polarbill

Mary, thank you for the detailed response. It is very helpful and confirming what is driving me to look at ORV/Northwoods. I wish we would have stopped at the factory when we passed it twice on our trip to the tetons.

Apache in Everett is where I bought my passport and who I would likely buy my next trailer from. Don is who we worked with. My drive to it is a bit shorter than yours. I think mine is 8 miles

Okay, Brett, you have me beat by just under 3,000 miles. Must be nice.

Don was our salesperson, also, but happened to be on vacation when we needed to pick up the trailer. The young woman who handled our paperwork was great (as was the rest of the Apache team) and she gets bonus points for successfully dealing with our state's infamous Department of Motor Vehicles. The temporary three day registration they gave us didn't help much since we spent two days at Deception Pass shaking down the trailer and visiting friends on Whidbey. Interestingly, we weren't stopped once on the trip home despite having no tag on the trailer and no temporary registration in the window.

Regarding factory tours, ORV had paused them during the pandemic but, according to their website, they're now being offered again. They also offer a number of informative videos on their website for anyone who can't get to the factory.

One of the things that has bothered me about the RV industry since we started researching this latest purchase is the way various manufacturers toss around the term "four seasons". The worst offender had labeled a TT four seasons and the only feature they offered was an enclosed and heated underbelly. At a major RV show, we had asked a Jayco factory rep about dual pane or thermal pane windows as an option and he looked at us like we were from another planet. I have a feeling we'll never see an industry standard for the term four seasons, but I'll bet it would allow the quality of ORV and Northwood products to stand out even more.

The larger manufacturers seem to market to the needs of the masses who use their rigs for weekend getaways and family vacations at RV parks. It's usually the smaller manufacturers that design trailers to work hard in the outdoors and off the grid - although I do see some larger companies trying to jump on that bandwagon now. Quality is in the details and a better quality build will always make itself apparent to anyone doing a thorough comparison between manufacturers.

This is an interesting discussion.

Mary

[polarbill]

thanks again Mary. We had a good experience with Don and crew as well. I got to speak to him over the phone yesterday actually. I think we might run over in the next couple of days and look at an ORV and Nash just to see for ourselves the differences. Unfortunately they don't have either the of the ones I was thinking of but at least it will give us an idea of the differences.

FYI, my parents live on south Whidbey and Deception Pass is one of our favorite places, especially since it is just over an hour from our house. It is great that you got to visit there while picking up the trailer.

[Cumminsfan]

Originally Posted by trikebubble

We must have been looking at completely different Cougar trailers when shopping a few months ago. We looked at multiple brand new Cougars and they were utter garbage. Honestly, I was embarrassed to even be looking at them. Their were staples coming thru trim, most trim mitres were not sanded smooth, in 2 new Cougar trailers the wide trim that borders the slide out was literally hanging and falling and bowing off. Doors woukd not close, lights and switch plates were attached haphazard, not square or plumb. The walls were paper thin, you could see the touch up paint over all the staples. This was in different 45K+ Cdn brand new travel trailers. It was actually a little insulting that an RV dealer would even offer something so poorly constructed for sale. My Wife and I spent a lot of time looking, just to make sure their were no viable alternatives to the ORV 25rts we had also looked at, and nothing even came close. I saw one Nash and one Arctic Fox that were decent, they were the only 2, aside from the ORV products that even deserved to be called a travel trailer. I was astonished at the overall lack of care, quality, finishing, and construction, we witnessed in the vast majority of trailers we saw. I could not imagine spending 45K + on any of those other trailers. We had been enjoying our Four Wheel Camper for the 4 years previous, and I based in its great quality and experience with it, I was a little naive in thinking all RV's woukd be even close to something resembling quality of construction. I'm 110% satisfied with our decision, I can't think of any other new brand trailer I would have considered if the ORV was not available.

Apparently we were looking at different Cougars. I wasn't saying they were equal in the sense that they were built with the same standards, I was saying that the Cougar is a step up in the Keystone line from the passport.
Same as an Arctic Fox is from Nash. Both can still have QC issues.

As far as my issues goes I'm thinking if you bought my ORV TT you'd be singing a different tune.

These are issues caused by ORV.
Slide large window leaked. On a heavy rain water would run down the inside of the slide wall. When I decided to look into the window leak myself I removed the interior window trim piece only to find that half the screws holding the trim on missed the wall completely.

Dinette slide built out of square like a trapezoid. The slide fascia trim at the top left and bottom right were not parallel with the interior wall gasket trim by 1"+. I completely rebuilt the slide fascias making them wider so it looked like they lined up with the gasket trim piece.

Hump on the exterior wall street side about 5-6' back from the cap up near the roof. I noticed it when waxing it. If you lay a 2' straight edge across it the ends of the straight edge are way from the wall about 3/16". That area corresponds with the edge of the roof on the other side where it dips in.
ORV had no answer for the roof edges and it would be a massive undertaking to find the cause.

The dinette slide floor squeaked and groaned horribly while stepping on it when it was in the extended position.

A staple was sticking up under the flooring in front of the bathroom door. I made a small slit in the flooring and hammered the staple down.

The light switch for the slide lights was installed out of square with the wall. I fixed it. The plugin for the bedroom TV was also out of square. I fixed it.
The plugin on the door side nightstand keeps popping out because the hole is too big and the little tabs on the plug won't hold it in.
The 12V/USB plug near the entertainment area ripped out because ORV drilled the holes way bigger than the clamp rings so only the front screws were holding it in. I removed the stereo and glued a larger piece of wood behind it with the proper size holes.

One of the dinette drawers didn't wok during our PDI. Apache tried to fix it and it seemed at 1st they did until 3-4 more pulls at home and it once again failed. I removed the drawer and all the hardware and rebuilt it.

Up on the roof there is a large bump/bulge from what looks like misaligned sheathing. At the factory ORV just added another roof attic vent there rather than tear up the roof and have to refasten the plywood.

Several of the cabinet door fronts are misaligned.

Several of the window side coverings were install out of plumb.

All of the above were missed during PDI. I may have seen the roof issue but it was midday and the sun on a white roof was glaring.

The worst miss was the out of square slide.

Of course you don't know if windows leak until you're home in the rain.

We took it to Apache to get warranty work done. They said they fixed the window leak but didn't. They had no clue about what to do with the slide and roof and said I'd be better off taking it back to ORV.

At the factory ORV removed the slide window and reinstalled it. They also replaced the slide floor. That cured the leak and the slide floor noise.
But they did a lousy job reinstalling the slide carpet. After a good rain I checked the floor on the slide with my hand since thats where the carpet would get wet from the window leak and found more than a dozen staples sticking up and frayed carpet strands.

Non ORV issues'
Fridge quit working 1.5 years into ownership.
3 windows don't work properly.
Cheap stove top. ORV should really look for another brand thats better built.

We've had more problems with our ORV than our previous 3 trailers combined. It's really to bad as we we really love the floor plan and all the standard features.
Like they say you win some you lose some.

[Dave Pelletier]

Cumminsfan,

I don't blame you for being bitter......but I think you DID get a lemon as you've stated before; serious problems on ORV's seem to be a rarity generally speaking and while I haven't had mine that long, i've had only very minor issues that I can fix/clean up myself.

I looked at a great many trailers before buying my ORV and after looking at the ORV, the lack of quality of most all of the others was glaring and obvious and I just couldn't bring myself to buy one of them.

I'm not saying that ORV"s are perfect and there are tons of fairly minor installation issues that could be done better but overall, it meets my expectations and I'm happy.

Cheers,
Dave

[4ina4x4]

Having had both major and minor issues with our Creek Side, I do still agree with Dave that ORVs are, on the whole, built much better than most of what's out there and we remain huge fans. Nothing is perfect but it sounds like Cummingsfan got a whole lot less than perfect and I'm sorry to hear it.

Although my understanding is that many state lemon laws preclude RVs (both motorized and non-motorized), some states do cover motorized RVs, albeit in a different way than automobiles. In the case of both motorized and non-motorized RVs not covered by a lemon law, I also understand that claims may be made under the (federal) Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which protects buyers when a manufacturer doesn't honor its written warranty. We've received top-notch service from ORV's factory service department since day one. Based on our personal experience, I don't see ORV ever falling into that category, but I suppose it could happen with any manufacturer depending on the management in place. Certainly, the Warranty Act may not be helpful in every circumstance, but it may be helpful in some. Legal advice would definitely be needed. Note that I'm not an attorney, so these comments are just info, not advice.

We did challenge an auto dealer through our state's lemon law once about 20 years ago. The process was excruciatingly painful, took months and racked up a bunch of attorney's fees. In the end, we won the case and the dealer or manufacturer had to take back the vehicle and pay our legal fees. It's not a process for the faint of heart but it may be a last resort for some when all other options fail.

It's discouraging when you poke around an RV show and find a lot of units with flimsy cabinetry, ill-fitting doors, walls that flex and uncomfortable furniture. Kinda makes you wonder what else in the rig is of poor quality - especially the structural stuff you can't see.

Mary

[Cumminsfan]

To be fair it's a love hate relationship with our 25RDS. Love the dinette but dang had to rebuild the drawer.
Love the DP windows but had to have one reinstalled and 3 are finicky.
Love the cabinets but several are misaligned.
Etc, etc, etc.

I won't argue that ORV puts a lot more better standard features than most. It's the QC that is not what I expected.

This is our last trailer as we're both retired and don't feel like doing it all over again. Ours is pretty well moded out and we don't want to start over with another payment and all the work to get where we are now.

I guess I'm the guy standing behind the guy buying lottery tickets and the guy ahead of me bought the winning ticket.

[BPTS]

We had a 2016 Outback 220URB. It was a decent unit for a 1st trailer, no major issues. I have owned various truck campers through the years, fixing them up and modifying them as I saw fit. I even rebuilt the cab over section on a 2002 Lance camper so I am very familiar with construction and support systems for a trailer.
I knew it wasn't perfect but didnt see any insurmountable issues.
We took it to Estes Park in September and it dropped down to 30ish degrees at night. The heater ran constantly and the trailer never got over 60 degrees that night. I noticed there was barely any airflow out of the vents.
When I got it home I dropped the coroplast "basement" cover and was appalled by what I saw.
Trash, chunks of wire, wood cutouts.
The heat ducting consisted of about 60' of the really cheap dryer vent hose snaked all over the basement. Half of it was crushed and some had big cuts.
The runs to the 2 heat vents were only about 4 and 8 feet from the furnace. $20 worth of metal ducting made for a much better system.
But as I spent more time under it I became much more dismayed. The wiring was an absolute mess, numerous bare wires showing at splices, pinched wires, the 12v positive was sandwiched between the frame and the fresh water tank, basically crushed.
The main beams of the frames are piecemeal weldments of probably 11 gauge sheet steel and quite a few of the welds looked like they were done by Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles. Just horrible.
Then I noticed the fastening system for the cabinetry to the floors- deck screws. Now if the floor was 3/4" plywood ok, but the floor on an Ultra Light is a sandwich, 1/4 Luan, 1 1/2" foam and another layer of 1/4 Luan. No screwholding ability whatsoever. There were screw heads that had been driven right through the ply into the foam. I had visions of going down a Forest Service road for 1/2 mile, pulling into the campsite only to find the cabinetry on the floor.
I totally lost all confidence in the unit.
Buttoned it back up, hauled it 150 miles and traded it in on a 2019 Outdoors RV 24RLS.

There is no comparison between the 2.

Been nothing but happy with our ORV.

[Vintage465]

Quality on the ORV and Northwood is certainly the intent. Not always the result, but the intent. I found a cross member of my frame cracked at the weld on the street side of the coach. I ended up pulling all the coroplast belly wrap down and inspecting all the welds. I found one other frame cross member broken and a tank hanger that failed. Those things failed entirely from a craftsmanship perspective, not design. Then I see how the wires are ran and it's pretty rough. This is a design short coming. I was under a friend's Rockwood coach and the way Rockwood runs their wiring is superior to ORV's. But pretty much everything else Rockwood does is crud. All this said, I will take ORV's shortcomings any day compared to what comes out of Indiana.

[Dave Pelletier]

When I was looking I was horrified at some of the construction materials and methods used by some of the manufacturers. In particular, I was looking at a Rockwood Ultralight (a used one) and was shocked to learn that some were build with a luan/foam sandwich floor https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...print/true.cfm Many of the trailers I looked at used particle board instead of plywood as well......thin walls with cheap expanded polystyrene that you could compress by hand, etc. etc.

....it was after this research that my trailer search list narrowed considerably!


Dave