Covid vaccines

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by Dr Obbins

This thread started about if you will get the vaccine or not. While I enjoy the conversation and your point of views, I don't know how to respond with out taking it into directions that the Moderators won't like. So I am bowing out.



Happy camping.

To be completely accurate, the OP announced that they would get the vaccine even though no one asked. And then proceeded to issue a directive that anyone who chose not to get the vaccine, not infect those who did get the vaccine.

Of course, anyone who gets the vaccine is extremely unlikely to contract the virus from either the vaccinated or unvaccinated, which makes the directive somewhat illogical.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by Solo_RV_Guy

Division is more than 3rd grade math, you're right about that.

Keeping the vaccinated and unvaccinated apart is likely unrealistic (we know the virus spreads in crowds but folks gather anyway) but the primary risk falls on the unvaccinated.

I'll go out on a limb here: if a person does not have a medical reason to forego vaccination my empathy/sympathy meter does not have sufficient resolution at the low end of the scale to register much concern for them going forward. If they don't care, why should I? (note sarcastic eye roll emoji)

But the difference between receiving, or not, a vaccination will play into a number of public events, concerts, festivals and sporting event admission for the next year, maybe longer. Live Nation, the largest promoter of concerts and festivals in the USA will have a number of health requirements to be met in order to attend events - app based, and the app on your phone holds your health credentials and electronic ticket. It will display a QR code and if, for any reason, a ticket holder's health credential is invalidated or rejected, the QR ticket will be voided and access to the venue or site will be denied. This is private commerce and they can set their own rules; consumer option is "if you don't like it, don't buy a ticket." It remains to be seen if people who do not own smart phones will be able to buy tickets and how credentialing will be handled.

Many of us here on iRV2 are over age 60 so the above may not be a big deal (let's face it, who wants to be in a mosh pit with a walker or oxygen concentrator) but points to the way public gatherings may be organized for the next year or so. If folks want to wait a couple months to see what initial results or issues look like, it's completely understandable. Unnecessarily delaying vaccination, though, could mean personal illness or death, spreading the virus, or being denied participation in events or admission to facilities.

And remember that "your rights" only deal with the government - private enterprise is largely free to set whatever health requirements they deem appropriate.

Wear your mask, maintain respectful distance, keep your hands clean, and encourage others to do the same.

I wouldn’t be so presumptuous as to categorize a person, or 100 million people, who may choose not to get the vaccine as people who don’t care, and I would have as much concern for them as any other human, regardless of their decision on personal health matters.

We use the QR code at work for “surveillance testing”. Strangely, to use the QR code to register a test kit, you must agree to a “Privacy Agreement” which requires you to waive your right to maintain the privacy of your medical records. Testing is a condition of work. Waiving your medical privacy rights is not. Some employees have refused to agree to the “Privacy Agreement”. Their information is entered manually for each test and they never receive the results of those tests. The employer does receive the results, so if there is a positive result they will be removed from the project.

Who knows what will come from restricted access requirements or what the future of live performances will be. Perhaps the performers on stage in an empty arena with the event streamed to people in their living rooms. That’s what’s happening with sports.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

We may get some guidance on this but I suspect there will be a period of time when even those who have been vaccinated will be wearing masks. Even after I'm fortunate enough to get the vaccine, I wouldn't be comfortable going to the grocery w/o a mask until everyone else has had the opportunity. My status wouldn't be obvious and I don't want to be mistaken for one of "those people."

Just what is "those people"

You referring to people who do not get the COVID vaccine? I will not be getting it. My Stem Cell Transplant Dr as told me not to get it, it could prove deadly. My oncologist's have both told me not to get it.

As a mater of fact, I have also been told I can not be with in 6 feet of anyone who has had the flew shot in the last 8 weeks. I also can not be near children under 12 for the next 6 months.

So, while my wife could get the COVID vaccine, if she did we could not live together.

Not everyones situation is the same.

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

I wouldn’t be so presumptuous as to categorize a person, or 100 million people, who may choose not to get the vaccine as people who don’t care, and I would have as much concern for them as any other human, regardless of their decision on personal health matters.

We use the QR code at work for “surveillance testing”. Strangely, to use the QR code to register a test kit, you must agree to a “Privacy Agreement” which requires you to waive your right to maintain the privacy of your medical records. Testing is a condition of work. Waiving your medical privacy rights is not. Some employees have refused to agree to the “Privacy Agreement”. Their information is entered manually for each test and they never receive the results of those tests. The employer does receive the results, so if there is a positive result they will be removed from the project.

Who knows what will come from restricted access requirements or what the future of live performances will be. Perhaps the performers on stage in an empty arena with the event streamed to people in their living rooms. That’s what’s happening with sports.

For some it may not be a choice. I do not have a choice according to my Doctors, I am told not to get it. My wife has a choice, but if she gets it, she cant live with me.

So, It's no choice for me, but at this point if it was a choice, I would still chose no.

[RKins]

Originally Posted by Dave

Just what is "those people"

I'm sure he's referring to people who refuse to wear a mask.

Originally Posted by Dave

You referring to people who do not get the COVID vaccine? I will not be getting it. My Stem Cell Transplant Dr as told me not to get it, it could prove deadly. My oncologist's have both told me not to get it.

As a mater of fact, I have also been told I can not be with in 6 feet of anyone who has had the flew shot in the last 8 weeks. I also can not be near children under 12 for the next 6 months.

And you're going to the Tampa RV Supershow? Talk about going "against medical advice" (AMA). Usually that voids insurance coverage. Good luck Dave.

[ShelbyM]

Originally Posted by RKins

I'm sure he's referring to people who refuse to wear a mask.

Yes, thanks.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

I wouldn’t be so presumptuous as to categorize a person, or 100 million people, who may choose not to get the vaccine as people who don’t care, and I would have as much concern for them as any other human, regardless of their decision on personal health matters.

We use the QR code at work for “surveillance testing”. Strangely, to use the QR code to register a test kit, you must agree to a “Privacy Agreement” which requires you to waive your right to maintain the privacy of your medical records. Testing is a condition of work. Waiving your medical privacy rights is not. Some employees have refused to agree to the “Privacy Agreement”. Their information is entered manually for each test and they never receive the results of those tests. The employer does receive the results, so if there is a positive result they will be removed from the project.

Who knows what will come from restricted access requirements or what the future of live performances will be. Perhaps the performers on stage in an empty arena with the event streamed to people in their living rooms. That’s what’s happening with sports.

Testing for work is not a medical service (according to entertainment industry lawyers) so long as no medical determination is made from the test results. Lawyers don't agree on things so I do not dispute your comments; it's still part of employers doing their CYA duties no matter how they think HIPPA does or doesn't apply to them...

Live entertainment revenues pale in comparison to sporting events because of broadcast revenues. The "fans in the stands" is only part of the revenue stream for teams, sponsors and broadcasters. The lack of a sufficiently vaccinated population means that the other millions of folks whose work depends on proximate audiences will not be going back to work any time soon, and for a pandemic economy to absorb, say, 5 million workers is extremely unlikely. In more normal times they'd wait tables, serve drinks, or pick up other work in hospitality, tourism, etc. Since all of that is off the table right now, vaccinations are a primary tool to economic recovery.

"Live" entertainment is working with streaming and virtual audiences - Clair Global, the largest contractor of live production equipment and services has developed a serious virtual audience platform that attempts to replicate the sense of 'being there.' It's not a replacement for being able to raise your adult beverage with your friends when Styx sings "Blue Collar Man" or "Grand Illusion" at the state fair but it helps performers stay connected with their fans. It's not a long term solution and it can't help those out of work until audiences can resume assembly.

I see @Dave has weighed in on his medical issues that will prevent him from receiving some or all of the current vaccines. He and people like him are not a source of heartburn for me: he has serious and valid medical problems and I wish him and others in his situation all the best in the difficult months that are still ahead.

I would be in line for vaccination right now if it were offered to me. As it is, I'll be waiting a long time as I'm not old enough (<65) or sick enough (only 2 co-morbidities) and will likely not be able to get the shots until May or June.

So again I will say: if one is medically able PLEASE get vaccinated, and until we get most of our fellow Americans vaccinated, continue to wear a mask, remain respectfully distanced, and practice enhanced hygiene. Please.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by RKins

I'm sure he's referring to people who refuse to wear a mask.


And you're going to the Tampa RV Supershow? Talk about going "against medical advice" (AMA). Usually that voids insurance coverage. Good luck Dave.

Okay, like me who can not get the vaccine for medical reasons, there are people who can not wear a mask for medical reasons.

Originally Posted by ShelbyM

Yes, thanks.

What do you say to the person who can not wear a mask for valid medical reasons? They exist.

Originally Posted by Solo_RV_Guy

I see @Dave has weighed in on his medical issues that will prevent him from receiving some or all of the current vaccines. He and people like him are not a source of heartburn for me: he has serious and valid medical problems and I wish him and others in his situation all the best in the difficult months that are still ahead.

I would be in line for vaccination right now if it were offered to me. As it is, I'll be waiting a long time as I'm not old enough (<65) or sick enough (only 2 co-morbidities) and will likely not be able to get the shots until May or June.

So again I will say: if one is medically able PLEASE get vaccinated, and until we get most of our fellow Americans vaccinated, continue to wear a mask, remain respectfully distanced, and practice enhanced hygiene. Please.

While I have some serious medical issues, I am not in a panic over COVID. I sure do not want to get it, and am very high risk. That said, I can not quit living my life over something that has a greater than 97% recovery rate. If I did, I would be dead by now as my recover rate from type diabetes is 0, their is no cure or recovery. My Cancer has no cure.

I think people need to decide what is best for them. Stay home, isolate or limit going placed. For others its to continue their life, do what they enjoy.

I say this, knowing recovery from illness, chemo or injure is a lot based on the attitude of the patient. For me, I can not stand being trapped in side, I can not stand not doing things. I was in Hospital for 14 days for my Chemo and Stem Cell transplant. I walked 72 miles on the 17th floor, I was not allowed to leave transplant floor. If I had to stay in my room, I would have lost my mind, and would not be where I am in my recovery.

I also think business should decide what's best for them.

I say this from my perspective as a cancer patient. Governors should not be making decisions that affect other peoples lives, with out it being a law passed. I had State governors making medical decisions for me, not my Oncologists and not my Stem Cell DR. My treatment was held up for 6 months due to travel bans and quarantine rules. That is not what was best for me. Not according to any of my Dr's who tried to get exceptions for me.

So what do we do for all the small business that have been shut, who lost everything. Who have no income, lost their build and life work because they were shut down? Yet its okay to go into the big box store that is their competitor like lowes or home depot.

Personally, I would feel safer going into a small hardware store with a few people in it than a Packed home depot.

[sibe]

I scanned thru the posts .. what i thought..

IMO, my personal view,, The entire Covid play from day one thru politics. as our country is sideways.. It is about people, lives in many areas, business, medicine and the ALL mighty dollar we all worship... root of many of evils,,,

There was a day when neighbors were neighbor and helped each other with out worry of liability, and who said what,,, Farmer helping farmer, brother helping sister , cousin for no reward other than athanks and maybe a returned favor.. today this is shattered..

I will take the vaccine if my doc gives a green light, I am at a risk but we will weight the odds, my local area is hit hard with covid , my rural house area 40 miles away/ 2 counties/ is almost no covid.. This Vaccine is a new animal that may pan out to be ground breaking or back breaking..
It is your choice but regardless be responsible to others and the risks to others as yourself..

[ShelbyM]

Originally Posted by Dave

What do you say to the person who can not wear a mask for valid medical reasons? They exist.

Pretty sure that for the duration of this pandemic I've not said anything to anyone who was not following proper protocol in any fashion.

[twogypsies]

For the skeptics out there.....

Pfizer's vaccine consisted of 44,000 participants. 170 got the virus and 162 of them were in the placebo group.

Moderna's vaccine consisted of 30,000 participants. 95 got the virus and 90 of them were in the placebo group.

The vaccine cannot give you the virus because it doesn't contain the virus. It works differently than other vaccines.

A recap.... 74,000 total received the vaccine. 265 got the virus. 13 of the 265 received the actual vaccine but they couldn't have gotten the virus from the vaccine because the vaccine doesn't contain the virus.

The cases were from being in the outside community. As you can see from the numbers above, even with those that received the actual vaccine the vaccine is not 100% if you mingle with the public. Chances are even slimmer of getting the virus from the general public if the general public all receives the vaccine.

A extraordinary percentage of efficacy in the 90's which these are, is unheard of for other vaccines. It's an awesome percentage. These vaccines are proven to be safe and you definitely don't have to "wait and see". They've been tested. That's why trials are done before they're approved. I hope everyone does their part in controlling this virus. Yes, due to some medical issues that won't allow the vaccine, not all can take it. Talk to your doctor for confirmation.

(By the way, we both worked at Upjohn Pharmaceutical who was bought out by Pfizer. We've been in that Kalamazoo building that is in the news. We've worked on many studies over the years. Makes us proud to have even the smallest remote connection.)

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/18/...cine-fda-data/

[Dr Obbins]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

For the skeptics out there.....

Pfizer's vaccine consisted of 44,000 participants. 170 got the virus and 162 of them were in the placebo group.

Moderna's vaccine consisted of 30,000 participants. 95 got the virus and 90 of them were in the placebo group.

The vaccine cannot give you the virus because it doesn't contain the virus. It works differently than other vaccines.

A recap.... 74,000 total received the vaccine. 265 got the virus. 13 of the 265 received the actual vaccine but they couldn't have gotten the virus from the vaccine because the vaccine doesn't contain the virus.

The cases were from being in the outside community. As you can see from the numbers above, even with those that received the actual vaccine the vaccine is not 100% if you mingle with the public. Chances are even slimmer of getting the virus from the general public if the general public all receives the vaccine.

A extraordinary percentage of efficacy in the 90's which these are, is unheard of for other vaccines. It's an awesome percentage. These vaccines are proven to be safe and you definitely don't have to "wait and see". They've been tested. That's why trials are done before they're approved. I hope everyone does their part in controlling this virus. Yes, due to some medical issues that won't allow the vaccine, not all can take it. Talk to your doctor for confirmation.

(By the way, we both worked at Upjohn Pharmaceutical who was bought out by Pfizer. We've been in that Kalamazoo building that is in the news. We've worked on many studies over the years. Makes us proud to have even the smallest remote connection.)

https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/18/...cine-fda-data/

I also belong to a Jeep Wrangler forum. The Wrangler has been with out any direct competition for many years now. Until this year. Ford is releasing a newer version of the Bronco that has definitely been designed to take away some of the jeep owners. In the Jeep forum a poll showed about 30% will buy a Bronco.

Now the next 20% have a "wait and see" approach. Like a vaccine, autos also go through rigorous testing, design, gov approvals, etc.. But as you know, still many recalls are issued each year. These "wait and see" folks know this want to see how they hold up in the real world.

These vaccines have been tested on 74,000, but that is a relatively low compared to 350,000,000 people in the USA or the 7,000,000,000 people in the world. In approving the vaccine, the statement was something like "the risk of the vaccine is far less that the risk of not having it". There have been pics of palsy side effects on FB that the FB censors have not blocked (for what that's worth). As mentioned in this thread there are folks with medical conditions that have been advised against getting the vaccine. Out of the 7 billion people on this planet, everyone is different and there will probably be different side effects. There is also chances of manufacturing issues as there is with any manufacturing processes. The virus is new, the vaccine is new, the vaccine type is new, the development, trials, and approval were completed at "Warp Speed". I see risk potential.

I do get flu shots every year, but just like the new Bronco that I am not rushing out to buy, I will not rush out to get this vaccine. It is probably safe with minimal side effects, but I'm going to wait and see.

[move on]

During the Revolutionary War a wave of smallpox swept through the winter encampment at Valley Forge. Washington took the drastic step of vaccinating the troops with actual smallpox virus taken from the pustules of the infected and transferred to the healthy via three cuts into the arm. The success rate was 90%, not very good for the 10% but the army went on to win the war.

[ShelbyM]

^^^^ Here is a great book about that Smallpox epidemic.

[twogypsies]

Here's interesting statistics on diseases... 'Average Disease DEATHS per DAY - Worldwide'. Scroll down half way for the chart. Unfortunately, this hasn't been updated since September because COVID would be much, much higher if using today's stats.

Notice how drastically the cases were cut down for those that are controlled by vaccines.

https://informationisbeautiful.net/v...J2PJ8KZLK4wjdo