Family Christmas Gathering or Not?

[geordi]

There have been no functional restrictions on people going to the grocery store or Costco / Sams or other retail to get whatever they might need - just that people should wear masks when outside their homes, and not be in close contact for extended periods with people outside their families.

With that in mind, here is my situation and solution:
My sister is a schoolteacher in a major NE city. She is not married any longer and lives alone. She has been teaching virtually for months, and only going out for retail (food etc) and a side gig where she teaches horse riding lessons. If you know anything about that, it is done in a large outdoor space where she has to (by nature) be far away from everyone else. No real social encounters at all this year.

My parents are in their 70s, and functionally retired. Going out is primarily retail trips, even before Covid. Haven't been to church or any large gathering AT ALL since February.

I work in entertainment (so haven't worked since March) and also have a side gig working on diesel engines (also have not had much of anything with that either). My main not-at-home has also just been retail.

In all these retail situations, encounters with other people are kept to a minimum of time (way under Fauci's suggestion of 15 minutes in close contact) and NOT being in close contact anyway, and always masked up. I've traveled the country a few times this year for the diesel gig, and "live in my bubble" while traveling, only leaving the vehicle to fuel or get to-go food, use the facilities, etc. That's the beauty of having an RV.

So for Christmas, the three of us are going to get into the RV and be "in our bubble" to go visit my sister in HER bubble (her apartment) and that's IT. No other enhanced contact with anyone beyond retail, and even that at a minimum.

Mental health is just as important as physical health - and this year has been a major test of that, just look at how much the sales have increased at Ben & Jerry's. If it can be done this way, then I don't see how this really differs from our staying at home in our bubble there.

Also from CNN.... This kinda lays out what I'm thinking, and our bubble according to this article.... Is like 4 people and some cats.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/09/healt...ess/index.html

[NXR]

"COVID is a manageable risk"? There are many, many more pleas such as this. ...

Yes. If this was not a manageable risk then nothing humans do would mitigate the risk. Entire countries such as Australia and New Zealand have managed the risk effectively without a vaccine.

Just because others are being stupid does not mean you cannot reduce your personal risk. People who proclaim that it's their right to not wear a mask or whatever have chosen to ignore the tenet that your rights end when they begin to infringe on the rights of others. Cut them out of your life and activities even if just temporarily.

Ray

[Dr Obbins]

Originally Posted by NXR

Yes. If this was not a manageable risk then nothing humans do would mitigate the risk. Entire countries such as Australia and New Zealand have managed the risk effectively without a vaccine.

Just because others are being stupid does not mean you cannot reduce your personal risk. People who proclaim that it's their right to not wear a mask or whatever have chosen to ignore the tenet that your rights end when they begin to infringe on the rights of others. Cut them out of your life and activities even if just temporarily.

Ray

The infringing on other's rights works both ways.

1. Why should one person get sick (and in rare cases die) because another does not follow quarantine and other recommendations? I have no right to get you sick.
2. Why should one person not "live" their life for a year or two of his life because another fears getting sick? You have no right to stop me from living my life.

Just divorced after 24 years and lost my job after the hurricane, I am single and ended up living over 100 miles from any family and friends. Earlier this year I was sentenced to "solitary confinement house arrest" for 3 months with the only time out was to work. I had not committed a crime and there was no proof that I had COVID and was a threat to others. If I was a COVID threat, then why was I allowed t work in a factory of over 1,000 other people. It was the darkest months of my life. Time taken away from me that can not be returned for no reason other than the potential that someone else may get sick/die. That "in theory" person's rights trumped my actual rights.

I realize that this forum has many who like my elderly parents are in the high risk category and due to their own self preservation, want everyone to wear masks and self quarantine.

The other side of the coin is there are millions of us "essential" workers who have been out and about since day 1 keeping this country fed and going. Daily someone calls in sick and is out until they get negative test results. We have seen and known people who have had a bout with COVID and everyone I know of was up and about in a few days. COVID can kill, so can the flu, so can car accidents, etc..Check out the CDC data on COVID deaths and the risk drops drastically the younger the person is. Only 20% of deaths are people under 65. And only 8% of all deaths are people under 55. I know this may sound cold, but the highest risk people are also the ones who can easily self quarantine. The retirees who have contributed to society need to more over and let the next generations live. Kids don't stop growing and needing school, weddings and funerals don't stop happening, etc..

My point of view is I do respect others health, however I also want them to respect mine. It is only a mater of time before we all have exposure to COVID. Society thinks it's OK for me to work with 1,000 people (some who have had COVID) for 10 months now, but not socialize with family and friends. My father (84) doesn't want us kids over, and that's Ok with me. I'll spend Christmas on the beach with my friends that are "family" as we spent Thanksgiving camping in the woods.

[bentjm]

Take a look at the CDC's own scenarios here:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...scenarios.html

Take a look at the CDC's own "infection fatality ratio" presented in the chart.

Make your decision based on the CDC's own numbers.

My wife and I are currently in our RV in Carrabelle, FL. We will be visiting with our children and grandchildren in TN over the holidays.

[scbwr]

We will continue to play it safe. If we get together, it will be in a outdoor patio setting with a patio heater or two. At our age, we are extremely careful as both of us have medical conditions that could put us at higher risk. And, both our sons and daughter in-laws are working and we don't want to risk exposing them to the virus. It won't be a normal holiday, but we'll do a Zoom family gathering and continue to stay in contact. At least there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel and sometime next year, we can have one helluva family party!!

[Itinerant1]

It comes down to risk and reward. One of our family members out east had the Thanksgiving get together with their kids and grandchildren. They all pretty much got covid with little to no signs, their father has been on a ventilator for 3 days now fighting covid (life), praying for improvement.

That get together dinner is not so important now.

[Old-Biscuit]

Originally Posted by Dr Obbins

The infringing on other's rights works both ways.

1. Why should one person get sick (and in rare cases die) because another does not follow quarantine and other recommendations? I have no right to get you sick.
2. Why should one person not "live" their life for a year or two of his life because another fears getting sick? You have no right to stop me from living my life.

I wear a Mask and distance out of 'Respect' for YOU
Can't YOU do the same?

[geordi]

Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit

I wear a Mask and distance out of 'Respect' for YOU
Can't YOU do the same?

And this is PRECISELY the correct answer.

Someone said they were "sentenced" to 3 months of "solitary confinement" in their house. That's not the way to look at it. You were asked to DO YOUR PART TO SLOW THE SPREAD of a public health emergency.... And FAR too many did not look at (or understand) the science and the numbers, and STILL refuse to wear masks.

They learned this in 1918. Masks work. They aren't forever, but for now. It's a minor inconvenience that allows much of society to continue to function, while not turning every trip to the food store into a superspreading event.

Wear the mask. It doesn't just protect me, it also protects YOU.

[rarebear.nm]

Obbins wrote:

"The infringing on other's rights works both ways.

1. Why should one person get sick (and in rare cases die) because another does not follow quarantine and other recommendations? I have no right to get you sick.
2. Why should one person not "live" their life for a year or two of his life because another fears getting sick? You have no right to stop me from living my life."

The Supreme Court has ruled over the years that the Constitution does uphold the right to suppress an individual's rights for the "greater good". Generally in our great country what is not prohibited is therefor allowed. Just simple examples includes our traffic laws and OSHA's rules. Most of our laws are by nature restrictive in that they try to prevent people/companies from doing certain things or require they do certain things.

So by example why should I not be allowed the right to drive 120 mph through a school zone if I want to? Or. Why am I required to wear a confining seat belt while driving or ridding in a commercial plane? I really do not get why the requirement to wear a mask in public is any different.

[Xmcdog]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

I agree with your comments except for it going to be gone by summer. The vaccinations probably won't even be finished by then. Also, once done there will still be those non-believers out there. We will all still be wearing masks, I'm afraid.

In hindsight, I have to agree with you.
Thank you.

[Dr Obbins]

Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit

I wear a Mask and distance out of 'Respect' for YOU
Can't YOU do the same?

I was more referring to major lifestyle changes, like lock-downs, public park benches closed, bars closed, not spending time with family, etc.. I am not going to my fathers for Christmas out of respect per his request.

As far as masks go, I have noticed that its acceptance varies from town to town, business to business. Some places make you wear it to walk 20' from the door to your table. Other places even the employees are not wearing one. My general feeling is I will do my best to distance myself and not cough or sneeze on anyone, but if someone is really that afraid, they can respect me and just stay home.

Me wearing a mask will not "save" anyone's life. COVID is not going away and everyone will be exposed to it sooner or later. Everyone's individual immune system dictates how sick that person gets. The number of people who will get sick/die remains the same until they have a cure and/or a true vaccine. Last March the predictions for death were about half a million in the USA and last week Biden reiterated the same number. From what I am hearing these vaccines do not stop COVID, just make the symptoms more bearable.

Forgive me for not linking my references. About 90% of the population who gets COVID doesn't know they have it, or has a mild case not requiring medical treatment. Well the new vaccines are 95%ish effective. If I have COVID I can spread it. From what I am hearing the vaccine doesn't stop the spread either and all should still wear masks. If having COVID doesn't make you immune from future infections, having a vaccine that tricks your body into thinking you have had it doesn't either. What I am understanding is that the vaccines make having COVID "livable" and the goal is still heard immunity.

I'm sure we can go round and round on this, but from what I read and accept as fact, the reaction to COVID is far overkill compared to the actual threat, compared to other threats. And the approach is backwards. Instead of closing schools because little Susy might bring home COVID and infect Grandma, let Susy go to school and keep Grandma away from Susy. What about Susy's health? - she is more likely to get killed in a car accident. IMHO the risks of having a generation of socially dysfunctional kid growing with a substandard education is far worse than the risks of children getting COVID.

[RKins]

I'm watching "Parking Wars", the parking ticket portion, as I type this.
There is a Hoagie joint on the corner and there are all kinds of marked reasons to not park on that corner yet there is a steady stream of people parking there to go in and get a hoagie and get a ticket for doing so. The officer writing the ticket has to put up with the returning people, hoagie in hand, complaining that they don't deserve the ticket as they were just getting a hoagie and it's not fair. They have a dozen excuses why they don't deserve the ticket (regardless of all the signs saying don't park here). The ticket is $41 and the hoagie is $2.50. The people admitted "yeah it was worth it because the hoagies are so good and I'm hungry". They reluctantly accept the ticket because they got the hoagie.

Now take this topic and the people that just have to meet with their relatives, regardless of the repercussions.....

[F4Gary]

Originally Posted by Talloaks

It would be very helpful if we could have one thread on the COVID-19 topic where we all agree not to engage in wagging fingers of reproof, lecturing, and name-calling. The OP did a really great job of laying out a framework for sharing thoughts and plans for the holidays in an open, civil, and considerate way. We were off to a great start.

If you have hopes of influencing others toward your point of view on this subject, you lose that opportunity when you start demeaning other people and their perspectives. Can we do as the OP asked, and just share our own thoughts and plans without the "tone"?

I guess I'm the only one who read your post. Nice try though.

[fagnaml]

I'm the OP and appreciate the many responses. As I expected the forum's suggestions cover the full range of what to do for family gatherings. After more discussion, my family has decided we will gather as a family and have as normal of a Christmas as possible with as much safety as possible. To assure we're at minimum risk of contracting or spreading the virus we're doing the following for our safety:

1) Each family committed to creating a "safety bubble" by staying home and avoiding others as much as possible. Grandkids still have to attend their schools and we adults are limiting outings as much as possible i.e. using grocery curb side pickup services, staying isolated away from others as much as possible at work (we're all essential workers with careers in energy, law enforcement and education), not going to restaurants, etc.

2) All adults will be rapid tested on 12/23. Anyone with a positive test (and their entire family) will stay away. Also, anyone with new sniffles, cough, sore throat or any kind of other symptoms will stay away.

3) In my home, which is a large 3800 square foot two story house, each family will dine at separate tables in separate areas of the first floor. Windows will be open to allow in alot of fresh air. If the weather isn't too cool, we will dine on the patio. We will fry our traditional Christmas turkey outside (of course!).

4) My wife will "plate" the Christmas dinner on each person's plate to avoid multiple touching of serving utensils, breathing on food, etc.

5) While opening presents in the family room we will all wear masks.

6) We will keep our gathering to ~two hours which is the same amount of time people spend dining in an upper-end restaurant.

We believe these safety protocols, which are much better than those in place at many Houston area restaurants, greatly minimize our risks so that we can enjoy a nice, but different, family gathering celebrating the birth of Christ and thanking him and his Father for our many blessings this year.

Given that my family are all essential workers we can't achieve zero risk by shutting down our lives and locking ourselves in our homes. As such, we follow rigorous, multi-level safety protocols at our jobs and have used those protocols in our homes very successfully since April. At all of our jobs, there have been ZERO work place transmissions of the virus thanks to following the multi-level safety protocols. These practices along with rapid testing on 12/23 will minimize our risks to the greatest extent possible for our family Christmas gathering.

I'm sure some forum members will pound me and my family for being evil, greedy, short-sided, selfish, having no concern for others, etc. so "fire away". In this great USA we all have the freedom to make good, educated choices within our individual risk tolerances. My family and I are not living under a dictatorship yet.....