EV Maintenance Costs

[bokobird]

Everyone discusses how much they save in maintenance of their EV and clearly, running electric motors to spin the tires requires very little maintenance.

What seems to be overlooked in these discussions is what happens after 8 years which is the estimated time to replace a Tesla battery? The owner of the EV has two options - buy a new car or replace the battery at a cost of up to $20,000.

That comes to upwards of a $2,500 per year "maintenance" bill or take one big hit when the time is up. Or perhaps some would choose to dispose of the car and buy another new EV.

I'm wondering through this poll what others (mainly EV owners) would decide or if they have even thought about it.

[radar]

Originally Posted by bokobird

Everyone discusses how much they save in maintenance of their EV and clearly, running electric motors to spin the tires requires very little maintenance.

What seems to be overlooked in these discussions is what happens after 8 years which is the estimated time to replace a Tesla battery? The owner of the EV has two options - buy a new car or replace the battery at a cost of up to $20,000.

That comes to upwards of a $2,500 per year "maintenance" bill or take one big hit when the time is up. Or perhaps some would choose to dispose of the car and buy another new EV.

I'm wondering through this poll what others (mainly EV owners) would decide or if they have even thought about it.

Hmmm. Where did you get that 8 year number. Are you possibly referring to the warranty length? Tesla says the battery is good for the life of the car and so far that is the case. Many of the taxis in our area are teslas and many have north of 400,000 kilometres. Most are 2014 model S’s. The standard range model 3 has an expected battery life of a million kilometres.

A battery doesn’t care how old it is. It cares how many cycles it does.

Everything else is just standard maintenance. Suspension etc.

[PJStough]

I dont believe I would buy an EV, but rather lease for three years at a time, as I expect EVs will become better, cheaper, and more reliable.

[BillJinOR]

The battery doesn’t “fail” normally at any planed time. It degrades its capacity ( miles it can go). If it degrades to 80% in 8 years that’s the time people (?) think it needs replaced ? Instead of going 300 miles it can only go 240 miles .. plenty for many daily commuters. Absolutely no reason to replace. All scare tactics.

[pasdad1]

What others have said…….

The battery just loses some of its capacity as it ages(cycles not really time).

Large battery banks to store electricity, are mostly made up of used EV batteries, after they have gotten replaced…. So there is still lots of life left in them.

The battery in my 2010 hybrid car still works just fine.

[darnold9999]

Battery life of 8 years. False premise, so nothing based on it is useful.

If that statement was true then I would truly be concerned about what it will cost to replace the battery when it dies. After three years of ownership we have not noticed any degradation in the battery. Not "any significant degradation" but "any degradation at all". Our experience will not be typical as we have only put 17,000 km on it, but the 8 year figure is complete nonsense. As someone said above, EV battery life is measured in recharge cycles not years. The local taxi companies have proved 300,000 - 400,000 km is normal battery life - not the exception. And that is for a Tesla built years ago. How many ICE cars are normally on the road after that kind of use with no major engine or transmission work?

Will I replace the battery in the Tesla after 300,000 kilometers - probably not, but I don't plan to replace the engine or transmission in my Ford Ranger or the BMW Z3 either when they die and both are nearing end of life at 250,000km each. I do put tires on them, change the oil, filters, replace suspension parts, brakes etc. as I will with the required parts on the Tesla. Wait, that would be tires and suspension parts - no oil, no filters and likely no brakes.

The only "issue" I have with EV's so far is that I can't easily work on major portions of them. I don't have the knowledge and years of experience to be comfortable opening one up and replacing a motor, or battery or computer system, where I will happily replace or rebuild anything in an ICE vehicle. The benefits far outweigh that "issue" for me.

[DrivingDan]

Originally Posted by PJStough

I dont believe I would buy an EV, but rather lease for three years at a time, as I expect EVs will become better, cheaper, and more reliable.

My brother told me to do that for the same reasons six years ago when I bought my Bolt. If I had listened I would have paid over half the cost of buying, and likely wouldn’t be able to buy one now anyhow because of supply demand there’s waiting lists everywhere. Granted we’ve hit the knee of the curve and the transition has accelerated, but EV’s keep their used value much better than ICE we’re finding (b/c basically they go forever), so my advice to folks is to buy if you see what you want - would have been a big mistake had I done that. EV’s are not cell phones, the advancement curve is far flatter.

Anyhow climate controlled batteries aren’t an issue but regular components are. I replaced two tires, one 12V and a door sensor in the last six years. GM has a brake fluid replacement in six, somebody else who bought a Bolt from the same batch found that he developed some rust or something in his brake cylinder and wishes he had paid attention to that service. So we’re getting the brake fluid replaced …

Anyhow yeah, the battery degrades a bit - but ICE vehicles lose milage over time too (become less efficient at least which is kind of worse to your pocketbook). But people have Bolts with 170k miles and only lost 8% of the battery, no big deal.

In my six years with this car the load off my mind of not having to gas, oil, air filter, brake pad, and who-knows-what-else-the-mechanic-will-find (a radiator recently in my last ICE car) it’s a no brainer ten times over. Not to mention the Lemon factor - I haven’t heard of anybody who got a Lemon Bolt - there appears to be less production variability with EV’s, which you’d expect with so fewer parts and less mechanical dependence.

Originally Posted by darnold9999

The only "issue" I have with EV's so far is that I can't easily work on major portions of them. I don't have the knowledge and years of experience to be comfortable opening one up and replacing a motor, or battery or computer system, where I will happily replace or rebuild anything in an ICE vehicle. The benefits far outweigh that "issue" for me.

I’m surprised at how much they can be worked on, if you have that experience and such. Plenty of EV only shops springing up to fix them, TeslaBjorn has covered several in Norway. They do a lot of Tesla work and keep components in stock.

[bokobird]

The premise of the survey was based on some quick internet searches regarding the battery life of a Tesla (do the same search, you'll get the same 8 year answer) but perhaps that is only the warranty, not necessarily the "life" of the battery in the car, and I'll grant everyone that. I haven't owned one for 8 years (don't even own one) so I have no basis to say whether the battery is any good at that point or not. If someone would keep an EV for that period of time, I'd like to hear their experience. Telling me your 2 or 3 year old car is fine, that's like me telling you my one year old iPhone is fully charged and is great. It's not anywhere near the point of where the warranty is over.

I'm seeing the warranty on the battery from almost all EV manufacturers ranges from 8-10 years. I understand the cycles vs age issue completely (the software company I work at, one of their many products is battery simulators for EV designers). However, just like any "warranty", if you're confronted with the need of a battery post-warranty, what would you do?

If I had to replace an ICE engine, worse case it might cost me $5k with someone doing all the work. That's peanuts compared to $20k for batteries. To me, the cost of these batteries is as significant as the cost of my ISL in my RV if it required to be replaced. I'd be confronted with the same decision.

I'm also thinking, not everyone who buys an EV travels just the right amount of miles every single day. Perhaps the car is being fully cycled every day. High mileage folks will run it down daily, is there a known number of cycles where the curve of charge is no longer useful? The taxi companies running these things, length of charge is probably not at issue for them since many fares are just a few miles if that either way. They bring the car back, grab another one fully charged, no loss of income.

All batteries wear out, maybe your car won't be kept long enough, but the batteries will wear out.

The manufacturers state the batteries will last the "life of the car", which they seem to estimate to be anywhere from the low-end of 150,000 miles to the high end of 500,000 miles (depends on manufacturer). You'd think the warranty of the batteries would be aligned with their marketing of the life of the car if they truly believed they lasted that long.

None of this would be in the forefront of my mind if in fact there weren't any real examples of people having batteries replaced in the EVs but there are. It was no issue at all finding the costs of these things, ranging from a low around $14k to the $20k high number used in the poll. And no issue finding people documenting their experience of sticker shock when they found out what the costs were.

[radar]

Originally Posted by bokobird

The premise of the survey was based on some quick internet searches regarding the battery life of a Tesla (do the same search, you'll get the same 8 year answer) but perhaps that is only the warranty, not necessarily the "life" of the battery in the car, and I'll grant everyone that. I haven't owned one for 8 years (don't even own one) so I have no basis to say whether the battery is any good at that point or not. If someone would keep an EV for that period of time, I'd like to hear their experience. Telling me your 2 or 3 year old car is fine, that's like me telling you my one year old iPhone is fully charged and is great. It's not anywhere near the point of where the warranty is over.

I'm seeing the warranty on the battery from almost all EV manufacturers ranges from 8-10 years. I understand the cycles vs age issue completely (the software company I work at, one of their many products is battery simulators for EV designers). However, just like any "warranty", if you're confronted with the need of a battery post-warranty, what would you do?

If I had to replace an ICE engine, worse case it might cost me $5k with someone doing all the work. That's peanuts compared to $20k for batteries. To me, the cost of these batteries is as significant as the cost of my ISL in my RV if it required to be replaced. I'd be confronted with the same decision.

I'm also thinking, not everyone who buys an EV travels just the right amount of miles every single day. Perhaps the car is being fully cycled every day. High mileage folks will run it down daily, is there a known number of cycles where the curve of charge is no longer useful? The taxi companies running these things, length of charge is probably not at issue for them since many fares are just a few miles if that either way. They bring the car back, grab another one fully charged, no loss of income.

All batteries wear out, maybe your car won't be kept long enough, but the batteries will wear out.

The manufacturers state the batteries will last the "life of the car", which they seem to estimate to be anywhere from the low-end of 150,000 miles to the high end of 500,000 miles (depends on manufacturer). You'd think the warranty of the batteries would be aligned with their marketing of the life of the car if they truly believed they lasted that long.

None of this would be in the forefront of my mind if in fact there weren't any real examples of people having batteries replaced in the EVs but there are. It was no issue at all finding the costs of these things, ranging from a low around $14k to the $20k high number used in the poll. And no issue finding people documenting their experience of sticker shock when they found out what the costs were.

What’s the warranty of a gas engine? 5 years? Is it expected to fail right after that? Replacing a gas engine in a car is not 5000 dollars anymore. 12000 is not uncommon.

If you are cycling a battery fully every day you are probably driving 400 to 500 kilometres per day. At that rate the car will pay for itself in 2 years just in fuel depending where you live. It’s 6 times cheaper to drive the same distance here on electric as gas.

You can google an article on battery recycling that indicates that the reason recyclers are having a hard time is because they can’t get batteries. Over 95 percent of all the batteries ever installed in EV’s are still in service. And that includes the original batteries in the 12 year old leafs still on the road. And back then they had no battery cooling and the chemistries were much less stable. It is extremely rare to have to change a battery in An EV.

[DrivingDan]

Originally Posted by bokobird

None of this would be in the forefront of my mind if in fact there weren't any real examples of people having batteries replaced in the EVs but there are. It was no issue at all finding the costs of these things, ranging from a low around $14k to the $20k high number used in the poll. And no issue finding people documenting their experience of sticker shock when they found out what the costs were.

Documented examples would be helpful.

Only cases I’ve seen are old used Leafs, as discussed those Leafs are pretty much at the bottom of the technology barrel with air cooling and chemistry. I’ve seen 30% kind of degradations which you’d expect from burning the battery on the freeway, then throwing oil on the fire when you stop and fast charge, all without climate control.

Tesla’s, Bolt’s, etc only heard the opposite from high milage drivers, which is just the expected mild degradation. I think we’re repeating ourselves here … anyhow I haven’t answered your poll because it’s missing the option of “Not concerned - in 16 years it’ll be 15% or something degradation and I’ll certainly want another car by then, and some person will happily drive my well taken care of car which still has 200+ mile range.”

Besides which tech marches on … third gen batteries (Ultium) have replaceable modules and per module BMS, so you’ll be able to swap out any modules that get troublesome. Mix and match chemistries if you like, or just swap out for higher capacity later on if you like.

[bokobird]

Originally Posted by radar

What’s the warranty of a gas engine? 5 years? Is it expected to fail right after that? Replacing a gas engine in a car is not 5000 dollars anymore. 12000 is not uncommon.

If you are cycling a battery fully every day you are probably driving 400 to 500 kilometres per day. At that rate the car will pay for itself in 2 years just in fuel depending where you live. It’s 6 times cheaper to drive the same distance here on electric as gas.

You can google an article on battery recycling that indicates that the reason recyclers are having a hard time is because they can’t get batteries. Over 95 percent of all the batteries ever installed in EV’s are still in service. And that includes the original batteries in the 12 year old leafs still on the road. And back then they had no battery cooling and the chemistries were much less stable. It is extremely rare to have to change a battery in An EV.

Maybe a high performance engine will cost you $12k, or you just go to the wrong mechanic. Replacing my 4-banger will cost $4-5k, no problem.

The EV won't "pay for itself". If that was true, they'd be "free". If one has to replace a $20k battery, people have to factor that into the total cost of ownership of the vehicle. Unless there are facts showing every EV car out there never needed a battery replacement and never will.

Recycling of EV batteries isn't really part of this poll, not sure why it's being brought up and since there aren't any real hard numbers on the percentage of batteries being recycled versus just tossed, it's hard to just quote numbers from a single article as you suggest (95%?).

I read that insurance companies are totaling more EV's than ICE cars due to damage caused to the battery, even if it's external. The article went on to say that they're charging a higher premium on EV vehicles due to this and that if an EV isn't even driven 11,000, all the "green" savings from EV technology isn't realized due to the costs to the environment to produce them (using todays' technology, not tomorrows).

I would tend to agree the insurance companies need to get better at assessing whether an EV in an accident should be totaled or not but the article went on to say it's an issue between insurance companies and manufacturers because they won't cooperate in sharing details on the battery innards (it didn't explain in depth what details weren't being shared).

[bokobird]

Originally Posted by DrivingDan

Documented examples would be helpful.

Only cases I’ve seen are old used Leafs, as discussed those Leafs are pretty much at the bottom of the technology barrel with air cooling and chemistry. I’ve seen 30% kind of degradations which you’d expect from burning the battery on the freeway, then throwing oil on the fire when you stop and fast charge, all without climate control.

Tesla’s, Bolt’s, etc only heard the opposite from high milage drivers, which is just the expected mild degradation. I think we’re repeating ourselves here … anyhow I haven’t answered your poll because it’s missing the option of “Not concerned - in 16 years it’ll be 15% or something degradation and I’ll certainly want another car by then, and some person will happily drive my well taken care of car which still has 200+ mile range.”

Besides which tech marches on … third gen batteries (Ultium) have replaceable modules and per module BMS, so you’ll be able to swap out any modules that get troublesome. Mix and match chemistries if you like, or just swap out for higher capacity later on if you like.

I'm not sure enough EVs have been on the market long enough to really ascertain the percentage of replacements over time. As you note, only the oldest with the least high-tech solutions are starting to expire. When EV ownership gets to 20-30% or higher, then it'll be easy to see what level of replacements are happening post-warranty.

[radar]

Originally Posted by bokobird

Maybe a high performance engine will cost you $12k, or you just go to the wrong mechanic. Replacing my 4-banger will cost $4-5k, no problem.

The EV won't "pay for itself". If that was true, they'd be "free". If one has to replace a $20k battery, people have to factor that into the total cost of ownership of the vehicle. Unless there are facts showing every EV car out there never needed a battery replacement and never will.

Recycling of EV batteries isn't really part of this poll, not sure why it's being brought up and since there aren't any real hard numbers on the percentage of batteries being recycled versus just tossed, it's hard to just quote numbers from a single article as you suggest (95%?).

I read that insurance companies are totaling more EV's than ICE cars due to damage caused to the battery, even if it's external. The article went on to say that they're charging a higher premium on EV vehicles due to this and that if an EV isn't even driven 11,000, all the "green" savings from EV technology isn't realized due to the costs to the environment to produce them (using todays' technology, not tomorrows).

I would tend to agree the insurance companies need to get better at assessing whether an EV in an accident should be totaled or not but the article went on to say it's an issue between insurance companies and manufacturers because they won't cooperate in sharing details on the battery innards (it didn't explain in depth what details weren't being shared).

A four banger might crank out 180 horsepower. Our SUV is around 450 horsepower and around the same torque. So yah. Compare it to a high output gasser V8. Also what does it cost to replace a transmission. EV’s don’t have one, or exhaust systems, or catalytic converters, brakes last twice as long etc etc.

Recycling was brought into the conversation because recyclers can’t get used batteries because they are not failing. EV batteries are not being tossed. They are way to valuable.

You mentioned something about some people might cycle a battery every day. If you drive that many kilometres (400 to 500 kilometres) every day the gas savings will pay for the car in short order depending where you live (gas prices vs electric etc.
). It costs under 10 bucks to go 500 kilometers in our SUV. It would cost 70 bucks in gas here. Adds up pretty quick along with every thing else. Frankly I can’t imagine very many do that except taxis, and that’s why they are switching to electric. Super common here. Every region is different of course.

I have nothing against gassers. They just don’t suit our needs at all. For those that prefer them have at it. For us they are gutless, stinky, smelly beasts that require lots of maintenance and can’t be fueled at home. Plus in winter they take forever to warm up and defrost. To each his own. It’s been 7 years since we drove a gasser. Maybe they have gotten better. .

Cheers.

[bokobird]

Originally Posted by radar

A four banger might crank out 180 horsepower. Our SUV is around 450 horsepower and around the same torque. So yah. Compare it to a high output gasser V8. Also what does it cost to replace a transmission. EV’s don’t have one, or exhaust systems, or catalytic converters, brakes last twice as long etc etc.

Recycling was brought into the conversation because recyclers can’t get used batteries because they are not failing. EV batteries are not being tossed. They are way to valuable.

You mentioned something about some people might cycle a battery every day. If you drive that many kilometres (400 to 500 kilometres) every day the gas savings will pay for the car in short order depending where you live (gas prices vs electric etc.
). It costs under 10 bucks to go 500 kilometers in our SUV. It would cost 70 bucks in gas here. Adds up pretty quick along with every thing else. Frankly I can’t imagine very many do that except taxis, and that’s why they are switching to electric. Super common here. Every region is different of course.

I have nothing against gassers. They just don’t suit our needs at all. For those that prefer them have at it. For us they are gutless, stinky, smelly beasts that require lots of maintenance and can’t be fueled at home. Plus in winter they take forever to warm up and defrost. To each his own. It’s been 7 years since we drove a gasser. Maybe they have gotten better. .

Cheers.

I have a problem with high power cars, another reason I can't own a Tesla...what's that problem? Something goes wrong with my feet and they become uncontrollable

Where I live, the cost of electricity is around 25 cents a kwh, which is why I have a 6k solar array on my roof. Electricity is not cheap and with my usage of electricity, I still have a $200 electric bill (computers and battery backups consume lots of watts).

And a friend did let me drive their Tesla, it's very quick, but what good is that during rush hour? Same with high powered V8's, they're useless in todays traffic for commuters. My 4-banger will go from 0-60 fast enough to merge into any traffic, new 4-bangers are not your grandfathers Volkswagen.