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10-11-2022, 05:05 PM
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#57
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVStitchy
All new technologies go through a development curve. They will figure this out and improve the design in the coming years.
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EV and BEV are not new technology.
I remember the Ford verse Chevy debates from high school.
Now I am an engineer with 50 years experience in the power industry including shipboard fire fighting.
No I will not figure out and improve the design because even in the idea case it is a terrible idea.
For example, pumped hydro energy storage is just a bad idea.
Storing large amounts of electricity in batteries or as potential energy is a terrible idea. What happens when it get loose and how much material do you need?
What we need is a museum of bad ideas. BEV advocates can take there grandkids to see a Tesla. 'I had one of those, what a bad idea.'
The best way to store transportation fuel is diesel followed by gasoline. Ammonia and hydrogen are terrible ideas.
What I am saying is that some things are new and you should investigate why they have not been adapted.
__________________
Kit & Rita (in memory)
37 foot ‘98 HolidayRambler Endeavor diesel pusher
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10-11-2022, 05:53 PM
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#58
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club Solo Rvers Club Coastal Campers
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,761
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Following,
A hundred years ago BEV were about 1/3 of the market. Steam was number one and gasoline third. The shortcomings of the top two led to gasoline becoming the standard.
It’s interesting that back then, as now, electric cars sold at a premium, were challenged by range, and recharging. General Motors even made electric delivery trucks. They didn’t last.
Always curious why proponents of bev don’t use them exclusively. Radar - deserves respect for actually walking what he talks. But even at that there are still compromises that are made and at a premium cost.
__________________
2009 Monaco Camelot 42PDQ
2011 JK
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10-11-2022, 06:58 PM
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#59
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 39
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This will be my last post on this thread. I respect everyone’s opinion’s and I reserve the right to disagree. I thought this forum was about rv topics not politics. To those who comment about our elected leaders here in Florida so be it. To those living out of Florida, don’t try to instill your values on us. We have our own problems here. My heart goes out to the residents of sw florida and I w ish them a swift recovery. I’m out of here. Respectfully.
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10-11-2022, 07:05 PM
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#60
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,354
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I'm not blowing smoke about EVs either - I bought a used Tesla in May of this year (just before Memorial Day) and have already put over 25k miles on it. FollowingSea might say "It's hard to do that when the range is so low!" but then you can't drive any vehicle forever either - there comes a time when they all need to be refueled. The Supercharger network already has over 1500 locations in the USA, and well over 35,000 globally. After I bought mine (in Florida) I promptly drove it on a 12k mile road trip, through 20 of the lower 48 states, all the way to Oregon and Connecticut on the same trip! I've subsequently been back up to the Northeast twice more, and will be (probably) taking it on another road trip in just the next couple days that will see me going to North Dakota, and then back over to CT yet again.
Clearly there aren't range issues with these, it is just a matter of plugging it in when it needs to be recharged - about every 200 miles for 15 minutes or so. It feeds itself while I get a drink and a restroom break, which works out to save time instead of standing at the pump for diesel or gas, and THEN going in to get the drinks.
As I stated previously, the calculations are thus:
Roughly 30 kWh of electrical power is equal to the energy content of one gallon of gasoline. Gas vehicles operate around 20% efficiency in that of the BTU content of that gallon, roughly 20% manages to make it into the road as torque. The rest is lost to waste heat and emissions. (and that would be considered pretty good). Electric vehicles operate nearly 100% efficient, in that of the power stored in the battery, nearly all of it can be put into the road as torque to make you move.
So for an electric vehicle to have a 300 mile (EPA rating) range, on a 100 kWh battery, that is btu-to-btu equal to about a 4 gallon gas tank, or 75MPG equivalent.
That's not a "bad idea" it is FACTUAL TRUTH. You can like it or not like it as you choose, but you can't deny the reality of it.
I do use a Tesla with my RV, I've had it with me on a couple trips now. It's very nice to not have to buy fuel when you get to your destination. You can complain that I'm "not paying b/c I'm using the pedestals at the RV park" and you would be right... OR I could just go to a local supercharger and power it up there instead. I've done both. It's available, and I paid for my site and that power pedestal. But the accessibility of that power doesn't change that my car has at least a 75mpg equivalent.
If gas or diesel are the ONLY solution as some here have suggested.... Why after 100 years of development are we STILL floating around 25mpg as the average fuel economy? You'd think the tech would have been pushed out to be more efficient by now. Electric cars ARE more efficient. They are cleaner. They do NOT pollute more than any other form of transport, in fact they centralize (at the power station) any emissions that are created - and thus that can be treated at that central location instead of reducing the efficiency of each vehicle. Note that I didn't say they are zero pollution - until our power is coming entirely from solar or wind or hydro, that will never be true. But they ARE a great idea.
__________________
02 40' Monaco Diplomat: 1020 watts solar, Victron inverter. FASS, TRW steering, 23 cuft Frigidaire, D/W, W/D, Magneshade, Wood Floor, New cabinets, diesel heater
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10-11-2022, 07:25 PM
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#61
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geordi
I'm not blowing smoke about EVs either - I bought a used Tesla in May of this year (just before Memorial Day) and have already put over 25k miles on it. FollowingSea might say "It's hard to do that when the range is so low!" but then you can't drive any vehicle forever either - there comes a time when they all need to be refueled. The Supercharger network already has over 1500 locations in the USA, and well over 35,000 globally. After I bought mine (in Florida) I promptly drove it on a 12k mile road trip, through 20 of the lower 48 states, all the way to Oregon and Connecticut on the same trip! I've subsequently been back up to the Northeast twice more, and will be (probably) taking it on another road trip in just the next couple days that will see me going to North Dakota, and then back over to CT yet again.
Clearly there aren't range issues with these, it is just a matter of plugging it in when it needs to be recharged - about every 200 miles for 15 minutes or so. It feeds itself while I get a drink and a restroom break, which works out to save time instead of standing at the pump for diesel or gas, and THEN going in to get the drinks.
As I stated previously, the calculations are thus:
Roughly 30 kWh of electrical power is equal to the energy content of one gallon of gasoline. Gas vehicles operate around 20% efficiency in that of the BTU content of that gallon, roughly 20% manages to make it into the road as torque. The rest is lost to waste heat and emissions. (and that would be considered pretty good). Electric vehicles operate nearly 100% efficient, in that of the power stored in the battery, nearly all of it can be put into the road as torque to make you move.
So for an electric vehicle to have a 300 mile (EPA rating) range, on a 100 kWh battery, that is btu-to-btu equal to about a 4 gallon gas tank, or 75MPG equivalent.
That's not a "bad idea" it is FACTUAL TRUTH. You can like it or not like it as you choose, but you can't deny the reality of it.
I do use a Tesla with my RV, I've had it with me on a couple trips now. It's very nice to not have to buy fuel when you get to your destination. You can complain that I'm "not paying b/c I'm using the pedestals at the RV park" and you would be right... OR I could just go to a local supercharger and power it up there instead. I've done both. It's available, and I paid for my site and that power pedestal. But the accessibility of that power doesn't change that my car has at least a 75mpg equivalent.
If gas or diesel are the ONLY solution as some here have suggested.... Why after 100 years of development are we STILL floating around 25mpg as the average fuel economy? You'd think the tech would have been pushed out to be more efficient by now. Electric cars ARE more efficient. They are cleaner. They do NOT pollute more than any other form of transport, in fact they centralize (at the power station) any emissions that are created - and thus that can be treated at that central location instead of reducing the efficiency of each vehicle. Note that I didn't say they are zero pollution - until our power is coming entirely from solar or wind or hydro, that will never be true. But they ARE a great idea.
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Great post.
Hey, can I ask what site you used for your map?
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10-11-2022, 07:35 PM
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#62
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbircky
Following,
.... Steam was number ....
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Love steam, for stationary power plants. For current BEV the steam is produced with coal.
during wartime with fuel rationing, gasifiers were used. I knew I guy who did a cross country race in the 70s with a gasifiers on waste paper and wood chips. After a hurricane there is lots of waste.
Plastic works better.
There are all kinds of solutions.
__________________
Kit & Rita (in memory)
37 foot ‘98 HolidayRambler Endeavor diesel pusher
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10-11-2022, 07:57 PM
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#63
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radar
Great post.
Hey, can I ask what site you used for your map?
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The map was made with Google Maps - just plan out the route and keep adding destinations, although it limits you to (IIRC) 10 on one itinerary which is why it doesn't show me coming back to Florida. Then I just zoomed out and took a screenshot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by followingsea
Love steam, for stationary power plants. For current BEV the steam is produced with coal.
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Congratulations, we agree on something - yes, coal is used to make electrical power in this country. HOWEVER you are again cherry-picking the data to try and serve your own biased argument.
ALL the non-renewable power in this country is used to heat water for steam, b/c that is what turns the turbines. I classify nuclear in that too, because while it can be recycled.... The 1950's design high pressure vessel reactors we are using currently are less efficient and make more waste fuel products than newer modular low pressure reactors that have yet to come online commercially.
So yes - Coal makes electrical power. So does solar, and hydro, and wind. If there was a wind farm near a political convention, we might have too much electricity generated from all that hot air.
The attempt you are making to allude that electric cars somehow are worse than diesel b/c SOME of the power comes from coal.... Is rather blunted by the FACTS again. There were (at one time) over 500 coal fired power plants in this country. That number has dropped precipitously, to less than 230 now - although I would guess that many of those have been converted to using natural gas instead.
CURRENTLY 60% of the power in the USA comes from fossil fuels, 20% from nuclear and 20% from renewables. Of the fossil fuel breakdown - it is only 20% coal, and 40% natural gas. So it is more accurate to suggest that electric cars are powered by natural gas as (by percentage) that's the most common option.
Now LNG and the other fossil fuels have their issues with emissions, and leaking NG is a MAJOR source of added greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.
But that's not the fault of the electric cars. If there is more solar deployed, then the cars would be getting their power from that instead - to change the fuel source of an electric car, generate power from another source. Can you do that with a gas engine? No? Didn't think so. That's ancient tech, to be so inflexible.
__________________
02 40' Monaco Diplomat: 1020 watts solar, Victron inverter. FASS, TRW steering, 23 cuft Frigidaire, D/W, W/D, Magneshade, Wood Floor, New cabinets, diesel heater
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10-11-2022, 09:12 PM
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#64
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geordi
.... FollowingSea might say ........ Gas vehicles operate around 20% efficiency in that of the BTU content of that gallon, roughly 20% manages to make it into the road as torque. .... Electric vehicles operate nearly 100% efficient, ....
....
That's not a "bad idea" it is FACTUAL TRUTH. You can like it or not like it as you choose, but you can't deny the reality of it.
I do use a Tesla with my RV, I've had it with me on a couple trips now. It's very nice to not have to buy fuel when you get to your destination. You can complain that I'm "not paying b/c I'm using the pedestals at the RV park" ...
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I was wondering from the picture why you drag such and ugly heavy vehicle behind your MH. My TOAD is a classic 95 Honda Del Sol convertible that comes in at 2800#. Had it for 5 years.
Noticed my first Testla of my road trip crossing into Oregon on the bridge to Astoria. 101 all the way to the bay area. Coming back did the Califonia coast on highway 1.
Based on 4 months of experience with a EV and a lack of understand of engineering principles you think I am wrong.
Just because you can do something, does not make it a good idea.
Last time I parked the MH on the Gulf Of Mexico I left earlier than I planed because of storm surge. Many would say that driving a MH on the beach is a bad idea. I love it.
I have three friends with BEV. They love them. I feel sorry for them because they do not have a sailboat.
What I would not buy in the near future is a car or boat that was registered in Florida. Being flooded with Salt Water is bad for things with electricity.
__________________
Kit & Rita (in memory)
37 foot ‘98 HolidayRambler Endeavor diesel pusher
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10-11-2022, 10:27 PM
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#65
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geordi
....you are again cherry-picking the data to try and serve your own biased argument.
...... than newer modular low pressure reactors that have yet to come online commercially.
...
...
Can you do that with a gas engine? No? Didn't think so. That's ancient tech, to be so inflexible.
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Going backwards in answering.
Yes I can. Florida sugar cane is a great fuel for a gasoline engine. Currently used as an additive to reduce emission. Hurricane debris could be chipped and used in gasifiers. I could go on.
Second, when it comes nuclear you are confusing different designs. In the 50s, it was US policy to share with the world the peaceful application of nuclear power. Several different designs made to commercial operation.
Currently almost all commercial power reactors are Light Water Reactors. I have many years of experience operating and designing Boiling Water Reactors and Pressurized Water Reactor. For other designs to become commercial, prototypes have to show they are better.
First, I was not cherry picking I was describing how power plants are dispatched.
In France, nuke plants load follow. Most of the time you could say BEV are charged with fission.
__________________
Kit & Rita (in memory)
37 foot ‘98 HolidayRambler Endeavor diesel pusher
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10-11-2022, 10:48 PM
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#66
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,354
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Load following isn't being done with coal when it is more economical to maintain LNG plants and add or remove as needed at the installation.
Current Light Water designs in use are very much high pressure. See also: Fukushima. Thanks, but no thanks.
A Small Modular Reactor installation has recently been certified by the NRC, and hopefully will be getting built in the next few years. While this is still technically a light water boiling water reactor, it is sized in a way that it does not have the capability to run away and can passively cool itself, so it is much safer overall.
https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/n...reactor-design
Coal and other fossil fuels are not the answer. Storms are getting more severe because of climate change, and continuing to consume tens of millions of barrels of oil daily is not going to improve that situation. Where EVs are a solution is in their power source - it doesn't NEED to be fossil at all. I will soon have a solar array of my own, and since power ALWAYS travels the shortest route, I will be charging up my car at home on the sunlight. Finally putting that excessively hot ball of plasma to a use OTHER than overheating the atmosphere of my yard.
__________________
02 40' Monaco Diplomat: 1020 watts solar, Victron inverter. FASS, TRW steering, 23 cuft Frigidaire, D/W, W/D, Magneshade, Wood Floor, New cabinets, diesel heater
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10-12-2022, 03:57 AM
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
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What happens when the belief in man-made global warming ends? Will that be the end of the EV industry?
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10-12-2022, 04:57 AM
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#68
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
What happens when the belief in man-made global warming ends? Will that be the end of the EV industry?
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Dude, do as your screen name says and just "move on", at least on this subject.
The scientific consensus is right around 97% on the matter, and no matter how many times you argue or disagree, I doubt that'll change.
EVs will be here for a while and they are becoming more relevant and useful each year. In some cases, they are just more practical than an ICE vehicle. If I could refill my trucks at home it'd be amazing. 1 minute to pull out the cable and plug'er in vs 10 to 15 minutes at the pump (for me) freezing my ass off.
__________________
2011 GMC Sierra 3500HD gas 6.0 dually
1994 K1500 Suburban shop mule and plow truck
2006 Lakota 29RKT 5th wheel
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10-12-2022, 05:34 AM
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
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Global warming has already been thoroughly debunked. It's just a matter of time before enough people realize it. Then EV subsidies will end, followed by a crash in EV sales. Charge station installations will be halted and existing stations will be abandoned. Then the copper thieves will swoop in for the coup de grace.
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10-12-2022, 05:56 AM
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#70
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
Global warming has already been thoroughly debunked. It's just a matter of time before enough people realize it. Then EV subsidies will end, followed by a crash in EV sales. Charge station installations will be halted and existing stations will be abandoned. Then the copper thieves will swoop in for the coup de grace.
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You are allowed to believe anything you wish, even the tooth fairy and unicorns. I don't think these forums are the place for your argument.
Please send the memo to the hundreds of thousands of scientists that disagree with you.
__________________
2011 GMC Sierra 3500HD gas 6.0 dually
1994 K1500 Suburban shop mule and plow truck
2006 Lakota 29RKT 5th wheel
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