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Old 09-22-2022, 07:41 AM   #57
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Besides, the Hummer EV is touted and demonstrated as a capable offroad vehicle. It has batteries. We shall see...
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Old 09-22-2022, 07:17 PM   #58
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Yikes that is a true horror story. Battery died and car is worthless. Technology will continue to move forward (I can't stop it). So things a manufacturer made 10 years ago will be so far out of date that you can not even get the vehicle repaired.

Will all the Tesla's built so far end up in the scape heap and be worse than a IC. I already saw the batteries are very difficult to depose of let alone recycle.

EV vehicles can not stand on their own merit without government subsidies. I sure hope the stupid government is not spending $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a boondoggle.

So far noone on this forum keeps an EV until the battery dies.
What has this to do with BEV Kenworth trucks?
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Old 09-23-2022, 09:25 PM   #59
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Technology
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Old 09-24-2022, 09:22 AM   #60
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Technology
Well, you are riding on a lot of misinformation.

The vast majority of batteries are still doing well 10+ years later. Exceptions are the 1st gen Leaf and maybe the 1st and 2nd Gen Honda Insight. Those were not the best technology, but I can almost guarantee that the owners are still better off moneywise (over the length of ownership) even if they scrap their vehicles.

All those batteries are recyclable. Sure, some areas in the USa, they have no idea how or why to recycle, but they are taking these batteries in here and refurbishing or recycling the cells for reuse. There are a half dozen huge EV plant projects locally, be it cars, light trucks, medium and heavy duty trucks, battery plants etc. They even produce EV snowmobiles, offroad vehicles and jetskis.

We are not talking about disposable Duracell batteries like you put in a flashlight.
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Old 09-25-2022, 03:24 AM   #61
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Unfortunately lithium ion batteries do not recycle well. It is presently un-economical to do so. Perhaps in some years it will be cheaper to extract the metals (lithium, nickel, cobalt, copper, manganese, aluminum) from the used batteries rather than to mine them but that will only happen as they become scarcer and more expensive to mine. The bottom line is that batteries and EVs are only going to get a lot more expensive in the future.
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Old 09-25-2022, 08:26 AM   #62
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Unfortunately lithium ion batteries do not recycle well. It is presently un-economical to do so. Perhaps in some years it will be cheaper to extract the metals (lithium, nickel, cobalt, copper, manganese, aluminum) from the used batteries rather than to mine them but that will only happen as they become scarcer and more expensive to mine. The bottom line is that batteries and EVs are only going to get a lot more expensive in the future.
It is already profitable to recycle cobalt chemistry batteries, which is what most EV are currently using, and more than 90% of the materials are recovered. Even with the extremely small amount of recycling due to not enough end of life batteries existing yet. Recycling is heavily dependent on economies of scale similar to the mining of the raw materials. You can look at recyclable batteries as extremely high grade ore you have that doesn't need to be imported, this create a circular economy.

Its definitely way easier to recycle batteries than fossil fuel and you don't have to use the air you breath to store the recyclable materials in the meantime.
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Old 09-25-2022, 11:27 AM   #63
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Unfortunately lithium ion batteries do not recycle well. It is presently un-economical to do so. Perhaps in some years it will be cheaper to extract the metals (lithium, nickel, cobalt, copper, manganese, aluminum) from the used batteries rather than to mine them but that will only happen as they become scarcer and more expensive to mine. The bottom line is that batteries and EVs are only going to get a lot more expensive in the future.
https://www.lithionrecycling.com/

This is just one of the companies doing so. There are others in the same general area within 150km of me. Some are paying for the used batteries, but you need to be a ragistered recycler with them, in other words, not just "some dude" bringing in their old battery, but rather a broker who can bring them hundreds or thousands.

There is no choice but to recycle the batteries. There will be a lack of lithium to mine in a relatively short time.
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Old 09-25-2022, 04:17 PM   #64
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Sad thing about it subsidies arenít free. Your and mine tax dollars actually borrowed dollars of national debt are paying for the subsidies.
So our money is going to subsidize some company so they can be more profitable.
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Old 09-25-2022, 04:19 PM   #65
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Is this the same government that promised an honorable withdrawal from the Sandbox, leaving a stable and capable government in it's place? If so maybe we should "copper" this bet just a bit.

EVERY new technology has it's growing pains but the "electric boosters" will NEVER admit even the slightest possibility of error. I'm deeply skeptical that these vehicles can be put into service without some real, expensive infrastructure in charging stations, lines, transformers, and generation capacity. It means EVERY truck depot and warehouse will have to have recharge capability. Who pays for that? We know what an emergency fuel/maintenance vehicle for a current big rig looks like; what will these vehicles look like for an ev big rig? How many "electric mechanics" have been trained? Are there even any courses for such a thing? The list of questions goes on.

This NOT to say it can't be done, it IS to say that it will an expensive, long term experiment before we KNOW whether it can or can't. Anyone who says otherwise is blowing sunshine up your kilt (a/a/a lying).

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Old 09-25-2022, 04:43 PM   #66
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The problem with pretty much all fuels in the US is that due to government intervention, its nearly impossible to tell what the real cost is. Gas and oil exploration is subsidized. Ethanol is subsidized and mandated at at least 10% blend ( in my state, MN). The subsidies tend to lower the cost at the pump, but then the per gallon state and federal taxes bump it up again. Rodu

What would the cost of a gallon of gas be if allowed to find its own price in an open market? I have no clue. I do know that the state of MN puts out a list of the top 100 carbon producers in the state and all 19 ethanol plants are on it. The #1 carbon producer in the state is electric power generation with transportation at #2.

EV'S? The current state of the technology just doesn't work for RV's. I'm trying to imagine how towing my travel trailer would work if I traded my Ram 2500 on an EV. So, I have 250Km of range (about 155 miles forus in the US). That's about the same as I get on a tank of gasoline in my Ram while towing. But in the Ram, I'm filled up 2ith gas and back on the road inn15 min or so. In an EV I'd be looking at MUCH longer. Will there be a charging station when and where I need it? Today; no. Even as infrastructure is built, will there be charging stations big enough to handle my 50 foot long truck + trailer or will I have to unhook so I can get into a station intended for a car? Eventually truck stops will have charging for electric semi's but then I'll be competing with truckers...imagine the dirty looks.

So, suppose my future electric truck can get 350 miles with a safe reserve. That's about as far as I go in one day anyway, so if I'm stopped for the night some place with charging available, that could work. But I think the day when I'll have 350 miles range and plentiful stopping places are a long way off. Infrastructure build will be focused on cars to begin with and the number of campgrounds that can do this any time soon will be small.

What's really needed to make it all work is either a revolution in battery tech or hydrogen fuel cells. Electric motors are wonderfully things for vehicals, but only when paired with the juice. Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of EVs and the tech has gotten good enough where a lot of my driving around home could be done with one. But it's not nearly good enough to be practical for an RV wnd wont be f9r a long time. I joke that I'll buy a big propane fired generator to put in the bed of my electric truck

Finally, Google "rare earth elements" or "rare earth metals" and focus on where most of those come from (hint its not anywhere in the western hemisphere) and why we mine very little of them in the US. Also keep in mind that EV'S will create a massive new demand for these elements and will be competing with your cell phone and every other bit of electronics you o2n for these elements.
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Old 09-25-2022, 05:09 PM   #67
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Itís wonderful that some have BEVs and those work for them. But they have a very long way to go in heavy applications. The new John Deere rep stopped here about a month ago. The young fella was all excited about the coming JD bev tractor. He went in about all the instant torque, the constant 130kw of power, the ďabsolute silenceĒ, and zero pollution.
He was a bit taken back that I didnít share his optimism. I skipped right over the lies about zero pollution and zero noise. Was I asked about weight and soil compaction. He said tracks would be available and preferred. I reminded him that tracks are limited to 30mph, cost an additional $40,000, and use 20% more energy than wheels.

I asked him about time between charges. He explained that the prototypes are running about 4 hours between charges. Thatís cute. Iíd have to dedicate another tractor towing a diesel generator to the field to recharge the bev. Or I could save the time and just use the diesel tractor. I asked him what other advantages there were. He said there would be a massive savings in fuel. I had to agree. If I bought a bev tractor Iíd never have to put diesel in it. Just the diesel in the generator and the tractor towing it to charge the bev. Or enjoy the reduced productivity having to drive it back and forth 3-4 times a day to the barn to charge it. Of course my electric bill would jump way up offsetting some of the cost of diesel.

Speaking of costs, he didnít have one yet. But as the electric gator costs 50% more than the same model powered by gasoline, it wouldnít be a stretch to expect prices for the bev tractor would start at $750,000 and go up from there. Iíd bet a BEV RV would have a similar premium.

As you scale up, the energy density of a fuel source is more important. Thereís a reason why golf carts have successfully used batteries for years, but we still havenít seen a bev used in heavy applications. Perhaps someday a bev will reach parity with diesel in these applications, but weíre not even close.
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Old 09-25-2022, 06:19 PM   #68
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What happens when . . .

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EV coming to an end soon? Ha, that is the biggest joke I've hear in quite awhile!

Nope, OEMs are investing heavily in them and battery technology, as well as mining for the necessary minerals and such. Toyota and Honda wanted nothing to do with them, now they're backtracking and paying dearly for it. Toyota is paying GM for using their licensed technology on the soon to come "Toyota" EVs.

Sure, govt. is helping now, no different than when the first ICE engines came out. As I said, OEMs are STILL getting subsidized well over 100 years later on old, defunct technology.

I see no way for hydrogen to be sustainable and safe for the general public. There is almost ZERO infrastructure anywhere. You guys are whining about poor EV infrastructure, there's only ONE hydrogen station in our entire province. They did a 3 or 4 year test and are stuck with dozens of unwanted hydrogen vehicles no one wants. After 2 major explosions at filling stations, I have yet to hear of a major incident at a recharging station for EVs.

The copper isn't for the batteries, it's for the motors and wiring. It's not like there's none of that in any ICE vehicle right? There are advancements in graphite technology that will change things.

All things in time, I'm anxious to see how these EV HD trucks hold up. The school and city buses are doing well so far. They are recouping all investments as planned and then some.
What will happen when the world approaches 90% EV vehicle? Where is all of the energy to charge these things come from that will not cause brown-outs or black-outs? Yeah, the technology is there, but the infrastructure is now severely lacking. This is political idiocy.
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Old 09-25-2022, 06:33 PM   #69
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What will happen when the world approaches 90% EV vehicle? Where is all of the energy to charge these things come from that will not cause brown-outs or black-outs? Yeah, the technology is there, but the infrastructure is now severely lacking. This is political idiocy.
Then we should nip all of these EV threads in the bud, since they are all clearly politically motivated and always degrade to the same "arguments".

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Old 09-25-2022, 06:59 PM   #70
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How long does it charge to drive another few hours?
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