Rivian EDV - Truly EV Motorhome Discussion Thread

[skhan547]

Hi all! My name's Sameh. I've been lurking on IRV for a long time, and thought I'd say hello with a topic that's very dear to my heart!

Former Rivian engineer here, was involved in many aspects of vehicle design, including aerodynamics, range, thermal, offroading etc. Worked on all vehicles (truck, SUV, and delivery van). Also worked on ultra-fast charging at Super73, on the C1X motorcycle. 4-8C charging via CCS, and on the Tesla network. Sub 10-minute charge times on the cord. Massive hobbyist with all things electrical and mechanical.

I've been looking into converting my own van/vintage RV for a while now (Just bought a 97 Fleetwood Bounder, 28T). As I gut it completely and plan a more modern, less cheaply-built, fulltime-focused layout, I can't help but think about the what-ifs of having a fully EV, ground up High-voltage build. I'm not going to do it (hah!), but it's really not as hard as people make it out to be. What's harder is retrofitting, and even that has cheat-codes.

So, I wanted to let loose a few facts about the Rivian platform here, and see if it sparks discussion.

1. The idea of using the Rivian Electric Delivery Van (EDV) as a campervan/Class B RV was thrown about quite a lot internally. It was tabled because the van's main goal was to be a cheap delivery van, and on time for Amazon. No distractions like the (relatively) small RV market were allowed. Still unsure if the business case makes sense at an OEM level.
2. The Rivian EDV uses the same battery as the Rivian R1T/R1S. It was less development time/cost for us, and with careful tweaking, got the van 150mi of range (enough for Amazon's customer requirements; delivery routes). There's no reason a larger pack couldn't be developed for the same structure, and larger packs were always in discussion. There's also relatively less complexity with swapping in R1T quad motor configurations, once those start showing up in salvage yards.
3. There are multiple extended wheelbase versions of the EDV (500/700/900). Perfect for the broader market of Class B's and van conversions.
4. Rivian opened up for fleet purchases a month ago, soliciting new customers. The OE platform cost can be way cheaper than the quoted 83k (closer to 20-30k, depending on volume). Link
5. I've worked with fast charging technology. There's a lot that can be done with smaller form-factor battery packs that can be charged faster. There are infrastructure concessions currently (just not enough chargers through the midwest for example, but those are fast going away. Also, 500mi+ ranges are not a necessity if you spend more of your time boondocking instead of driving place to place in a hurry.

I think well designed, ground up electric motor-homes are a clear gap right now. Pebble and Lightship are making fifth wheels, for a very bougie clientele (100k+). Nobody has claimed the electrified cutaway chassis space yet, let alone the affordable EV space. I think Rivian can with this platform. I'd love to see established RV makers enter this space, or the newer generation of vanlife conversion companies start taking notice of this platform over the Sprinter. Unfortunately, I've worked with enough of the legacy OEMs to know that there's too little understanding and fear of EV's, so good chance they'll just pooh-pooh it, or if they do get into it, continue creating bloated, uncompelling pre-historic products.

I see a lot of people talking about taking on electric motorhome conversions. Much as I love DIY-ers, unless you're an engineer who's spent time working in the EV space, it may be too much to bite off. The power requirements are far larger that what it takes to convert your Subaru with a few lead-acid batteries for 30 miles of grocery shopping. You have to build in the truly HV space (400V+, ideally 800-900V). But with all the dreamers, I would love to chat about what makes a truly compelling, modern, full-time motorhome. Build ground up to be EV, not converted, with the budget constraints and boondocking desires of young customers in mind. The people who don't want to wait for retirement to see the world and live free. So that we can create the demand for, or maybe even start companies that build the right products for this space.

Hope this ramble was somewhat useful, please share your thoughts! I hope to be much more involved in this subset of IRV

PS: Here's the EDV in-case you have no clue what I'm on about!

[Mark_K5LXP]

EV's are urban vehicles, which makes their application as delivery vans a viable solution. RV's are mostly used for travel, and use in places with limited or no charging infrastructure. There are decided advantages of an EV driveline but I think cost, range and charging will limit their demand for most consumers. The limited number of users that travel short distances and only stay in cities or RV parks I think is too small a group to manufacture a production vehicle for. To date you don't even see any commissioned or custom coaches built on EV chassis, they just don't solve a problem anyone has. I appreciate the technical accomplishments of EV's to date but at the end of the day they don't make a practical road RV.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Dieselboy]

Interesting idea no doubt. I'm more interested in a Tesla Semi converted into a Super-C with an second tesla semi battery pack for all the coach power needs

[George Schweikle]

While I'm not a EV fan, I noted that Rivian recently offered their "Amazon" van for sale to others and think one of the RV manufacturers will surely offer a product using this van. As skhan547 said, adding capacity/range to this platform is feasible.

A delivery van based motorhome has been done before. Does anyone remember the Mobilux?

[brucemcdou]

Hi Sameh! welcome to IRV2 and thank you for your really interesting and detailed post. I agree with you (as I know a number of people who post on this sub-forum do) that there is a large market for small, efficient Class B or converted delivery van EV RVs. Those who use them as a daytrip pod for the kids soccer tournament/day at the beach/surfing homebase - there are tons of those here on the West Coast and I'm sure anywhere there are parents with kids or athletes with competitions or anyone who likes to rest out of the heat/cold/rain/sun and get a bite to eat/take a nap/rinse off the saltwater in a private and clean setting.

Beyond the day use market, regarding actually camping, my understanding is that most Class Bs (indeed most RVs) are used within a very short radius of home by RVers and campers, perhaps 100 - 150 miles. We have a 34-foot Class A and most of our trips are less than that far. This weekend we were at a campground exactly 48.3 miles from our storage spot. We drove to the campground on Saturday morning, and drove back on Monday. Total outing under 100 miles. Our last camping trip over New Years' was 36.7 miles each way/73 miles total.

Based on the above I truly do not understand those who continue to argue that "there's no market for an EV RV; they'll never have enough range; they'll never sell until they have at least 500 miles range;" etc., etc., etc.

Please keep posting your ideas; there's a group of us ready to share ideas and thoughts as you consider the best way to achieve what you're planning.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by brucemcdou

Hi Sameh! welcome to IRV2 and thank you for your really interesting and detailed post. I agree with you (as I know a number of people who post on this sub-forum do) that there is a large market for small, efficient Class B or converted delivery van EV RVs. Those who use them as a daytrip pod for the kids soccer tournament/day at the beach/surfing homebase - there are tons of those here on the West Coast and I'm sure anywhere there are parents with kids or athletes with competitions or anyone who likes to rest out of the heat/cold/rain/sun and get a bite to eat/take a nap/rinse off the saltwater in a private and clean setting.

Beyond the day use market, regarding actually camping, my understanding is that most Class Bs (indeed most RVs) are used within a very short radius of home by RVers and campers, perhaps 100 - 150 miles. We have a 34-foot Class A and most of our trips are less than that far. This weekend we were at a campground exactly 48.3 miles from our storage spot. We drove to the campground on Saturday morning, and drove back on Monday. Total outing under 100 miles. Our last camping trip over New Years' was 36.7 miles each way/73 miles total.

Based on the above I truly do not understand those who continue to argue that "there's no market for an EV RV; they'll never have enough range; they'll never sell until they have at least 500 miles range;" etc., etc., etc.

Please keep posting your ideas; there's a group of us ready to share ideas and thoughts as you consider the best way to achieve what you're planning.

Hi Bruce-


The text in Bold - everyone tends to view others use of an RV through their own use case/worst case scenarios. Often the assumption is made that everyone else uses their RV the way they do.

I'm in the "200 miles is enough for me, most of the time" group. Extra battery capacity is welcome but not mandatory. How to package the rest of the RV systems around the energy storage remains to be explored, and is part of the discussion that hasn't been broached yet. A Class B on a Rivian chassis is interesting to me.

And if man was meant to fly, he'd have wings! And look what happened to Icarus! Darn kids these days!!! And EV RVs never happen! Now where is Nurse with my meds?

[skhan547]

Originally Posted by Solo_RV_Guy

And if man was meant to fly, he'd have wings! And look what happened to Icarus! Darn kids these days!!! And EV RVs never happen! Now where is Nurse with my meds?

That made me laugh!

The way I see it, there's one group of people who will look at doing a vintage conversion using a modified Tesla powertrain as very doable (albeit still effort). There's another group that will froth at the mouth about how inaccessible/impossible electronics or computers are... but think nothing of going down the junkyard to pull an engine, weld custom motor mount adapters and do a swap in a parking lot.

The last generation tinkered with carburetors, timing belts, and oil viscosities. Today's generation are hobbyists with digital hacking (firmware injection), power conversion (efficiency), and constant connection (IoT). It's an obvious generalization, but noticeable when you work in automotive. The transition is slow, and frankly, the older techs have to be pulled kicking and screaming into the future. Your grandad probably ranted about how much better carburetors were when EFI was first introduced, and the nozzles gunked up more frequently. EFI is king today.

EVs absolutely have unique purposes, and can't be used for every application. Heavy machinery will always have particular needs. But EVs are going to cover a lot of common-use cases, and ICE will become the niche technology. Power generation, power conversion and energy storage are in their relative infancy. New technologies and infrastructure come about every year. So chill out and enjoy watching this space grow more capable, and get more reliable.

About range:
In my current work, I use novel anode cell tech to support consistent ultra-fast charging rates on an electric motorcycle. We are reclaiming 70% of range in sub-10 minutes (Link). Could be even faster if we had the space for larger thermal management systems.
Since the C-rate is cell-dependent, it can be held constant across a pack of any size (that's made with these cells). So you could be charging a motorhome-sized battery pack in 10-15 minutes on regular CCS chargers, every 150-200 miles. That doesn't seem too arduous, does it? These cells have lower energy density, and lower life-spans. But again, that fits recreational vehicle use perfectly. You have huge amounts of packaging space, and it's not a daily driver. Obviously these cells are not what the Rivian EDV uses currently, but the platform will adapt over time, given market direction.

Fully electrical technology is simpler and safer in my book. It isn't the cheapest per kwh upfront, but in terms of maintenance over product life-cycle, it's fantastic. All the failures that make it unreliable today are the fault of poor government infrastructure rollout, and OEMs trying to be fast/cheap/lazy. There's nothing inherently unreliable about electrical systems. This will all smooth out.

The average person needs to get more comfortable with electronic tinkering, rather than bitching that the 'computer don't work! Gotta replace the whole harness'. Those same people will start aftermarket companies for electrical components, battery refurbishments, ECU power upgrades, custom firmwares for proprietary vehicles etc etc etc. Basically, they'll increase competition, and bring the cost of electrical failures/gremlins down. OEMS need to to be forced to move to a future where electrical components are refurbished and maintained, as well as less proprietary, same as mechanical. People should be looking at the simplicity, benefits, and longevity of electrical hardware, and demanding those qualities in their products via their wallets.

[atreis]

In 5-6 years I plan to replace my current Class C with a Class B (true Class B, not B+). The kids will be on their own then and we can, and want to, downsize some. The kids will be a non-issue sooner than that, but I need time to save some money to buy without a loan.

I would love, and really hope, that there are BEV Class B options by then. The Rivian van would be a great platform for it, almost. The range in the current van isn't there, especially at highway speeds.

I'd want 250 miles real world summer range at 70 mph on the highway so that I could go a little over 200 miles between charging stops. I currently go 4 hours or so in my RV today without stopping, but 3 hours is okay.

[4x4van]

"...500mi+ ranges are not a necessity if you spend more of your time boondocking..."

That right there is a major misconception on your part. I would need at least a 350-500mi range, AND enough battery capacity to boondock for 3-5 days, as would pretty much everyone in our group of 10-12 rigs. While shorter ranges may be fine for some, particularly those that camp in FHU campgrounds, boondockers by definition cannot recharge an EV while camped. That means that I have to get to my site, camp for the duration, and return home...things I can currently do on one tank.

Also, yes, 10-15 minutes charging every 150-200mi does indeed seem arduous. That's twice as often as I have to fuel now, takes a bit longer, and of course that's assuming that there is a (working) charger available where/when I need it. Remember, we boondockers prefer to camp off the beaten path. Oh, and others in my group can be fueling up at the same time I am; not gonna happen with only a few chargers available. So do we wait an hour or two while everyone in the group get's their chance at the charger(s)? Oh, and what is towing my 5K lb enclosed trailer going to do to that range? We see that with today's electric trucks, towing cuts range in roughly half.

Don't get me wrong; all electric RVs will have a place in our future, but not until a s--t ton more chargers are available, and the range is improved, especially when towing.

[NLOVNIT]

With the brutal cold the upper midwest & north are experiencing now & all the news reports about EV's being hard to charge/taking longer to charge/or just plain old won't start in winter, how will this impact EV RVs & what can be done about it?

I realize there are not that many people who RV in the dead of winter, but I don't see EV RVs being even practical if those are issues for people who do RV in winter or at the very least need to travel in winter.

[skhan547]

Originally Posted by NLOVNIT

With the brutal cold the upper midwest & north are experiencing now & all the news reports about EV's being hard to charge/taking longer to charge/or just plain old won't start in winter, how will this impact EV RVs & what can be done about it?

I realize there are not that many people who RV in the dead of winter, but I don't see EV RVs being even practical if those are issues for people who do RV in winter or at the very least need to travel in winter.

Nothing is inherently unreliable with electrical equipment or batteries, if designed with the full range of conditions in mind. Similar to how we design Middle-East or Arizona region specific cooling systems, I think we should be designing deep winter specific contingencies for HV packs sold up north. I'm Canadian, I've experienced the pitfalls.

EV battery systems are pretty simple usually. HV pack (250-900V, powers the traction motors) and LV pack (12V starter battery, same as your gasoline/diesel car). In an EV motorhome, the HV battery would probably serve as your house battery as well (why bother separating them). HV pack charges the 12V pack (since theres no alternator). In the cold, chemical reactions required to generate energy become less efficient, and you see a decrease in the available capacity (and proportionally discharge rate) of the batteries.

Three main things go wrong when your car doesn't start:

1. The LV battery is dead.
2. If the LV battery is dead, it means the HV battery is dead as well, probably from constantly charging the LV. If your HV is dead, you're dead (no house power).
3. The LV battery is too cold to provide cranking amps.

Note that 1 and 3 are problems with ICE vehicles as well if you're planning on deep winter operation. Most these reports are because EV owners thank EVs are magic and don't need some care/maintenance to operate properly.


Some simple solutions (just my proposals):

1. In extreme cold environments, the HV battery pack should just avoid charging the LV as it drains. Most people can handle disconnecting/maintaining their 12V battery, but are not qualified to mess with HV. Once you avoid this cycle of death, you can focus just on maintaining the LV battery, as normal.
2. Warm your LV battery before you try to start the vehicle. HV batteries can be used to precondition the LV pack, or you can get a battery warmer off Amazon.
3. Oversize all battery packs (HV, LV) to accommodate the extreme cold weather use-cases of having 70% normal capacity. While every manufacturer may not want to do this (greater cost), I'm sure bespoke manufacturers who want to serve northern regions will take it on.

As for charging, since charge/discharge rate is proportional to capacity, and capacity is decreased in cold, yeah, things will be slower than your summer fast-charges. What manufacturers could do is choose cell chemistries that, even when they're slowed down due to cold, give a fast enough charge time. Time on cord is what matters.

Slowing down from 15 minutes to 30 minutes (doubled time at station) is far less of a crap experience than slowing down from 45min to 90min (also doubled time at station).

Educating Karen so she doesn't make a tiktok about how Ford purposely slowed down her charger is also important. The operating condition effects are just science, and part-and-parcel of owning batteries for any application. Same thing will happen to your solar powerwall next winter.
Again, people seem to think EVs are magic. OEMs try and keep that illusion up with more idiotproofing. Cat and mouse game, and the OEMs are a bit behind.

[atreis]

Originally Posted by NLOVNIT

With the brutal cold the upper midwest & north are experiencing now & all the news reports about EV's being hard to charge/taking longer to charge/or just plain old won't start in winter, how will this impact EV RVs & what can be done about it?

I realize there are not that many people who RV in the dead of winter, but I don't see EV RVs being even practical if those are issues for people who do RV in winter or at the very least need to travel in winter.

I drive a BEV as my everyday vehicle, and live in an area affected by this cold weather. I've had no issues. I think this is largely a matter of education. Just as one has to do things a little differently in an ICE car when it gets extremely cold for an area (block heaters in some places, or sticking a lightbulb under the hood, making sure the battery is topped up, not letting the gas get too low, and yes, range in gas cars also drops in extreme cold), one also has to do things a little differently in an EV. WHAT one does is different between the two (still have that pesky 12V battery in most EVs to keep topped up, warm the cabin while plugged in, and one needs to pre-condition before trying to fast charge), thus the need for a little education.

In addition: setting expectations. It can take some juice (from the traction battery) to heat the cabin up 70 degrees from 0 degrees. Set the temperature a little lower and use the heated seats instead. Nearly all BEVs have heated seats for this reason: they're A LOT more efficient than cabin heating. Also, plan on and expect a range hit of 25-30%. At zero degrees, my range was reduced by about 28% relative to what it is under ideal conditions. If one knows this and expects it, then planning for it isn't very difficult.

As for an RV, I don't RV in the winter, so don't especially care about it's winter range.

[Cypressloser]

I live up here in the Cold White North and we see these cold spells every few years with temperatures dropping below -40 C/F, EVs in any form aren't there yet to handle these extremes, not to mention the massive strain on the electrical grid during a time when it is already stretched to the limits.


Anyway, this thread is about RVs.
My understanding is that most van builds are already near or above the legal weight limit, how can a manufacturer work around this fact when the battery pack adds even more weight to the vehicle? Reducing the battery size / driving range or increasing the GVWR is probably not the answer.

[radar]

Originally Posted by Cypressloser

I live up here in the Cold White North and we see these cold spells every few years with temperatures dropping below -40 C/F, EVs in any form aren't there yet to handle these extremes, not to mention the massive strain on the electrical grid during a time when it is already stretched to the limits.


Anyway, this thread is about RVs.
My understanding is that most van builds are already near or above the legal weight limit, how can a manufacturer work around this fact when the battery pack adds even more weight to the vehicle? Reducing the battery size / driving range or increasing the GVWR is probably not the answer.

I can’t speak to minus 40 as we generally don’t see much colder than minus 30 here. But guaranteed our tesla is better in minus 30 than any gasser we have had. We have jumped a bunch of vehicles with our trusty little power pack in the last week. All were ice vehicles.

Can’t speak to other models or brands but ours is much more convenient and reliable in winter than our gas or diesel predecessors. Would never go back. Especially in winter.