Rivian Towing Range

[NewBlackDak]

Originally Posted by radar

Yah. There are still lots of “charging deserts” out there. At this point an EV half ton would probably suffice for the local weekend camper but not for a cross country drag.

However, serviced campgrounds will allow for charging as well. Depending on ones stay and the kind of services the campground has one can simply recharge at the campground. Campgrounds are already adding themselves to EV charge Apps so at least some are looking forward to a new revenue source. KOA is committed to adding J1772 charge stations to sites. Of course wilderness sites are a different story.

Cheers.

Yep. 15 trips for us in 2020. 2 of them were in improved campgrounds. Everything else was dry camping, and most were in those “charging deserts”.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Cat

Couldn't find that article again but here is part of one that talks a little about improving EV battery life by not letting battery go below 20% for long or chrage over 80% unless going on a long trip. I'm still curious about what is considered a failed battery, obviously one thats dead/shorted but what about how much its degraded over period of time.

Lithiums lifetime are rated in cycles until the battery only has 80% of it original capacity. They are still usable obviously that is just the standard.

NMC Lithium Batteries in EV usually get around 1500 full 100%-0% cycles before they hit 80% usable capacity. If however you keep them in the 20%-80% charge range it increases the number of useful cycles quite a bit 3000-6000 I believe which is why its recommended. 1500 cycles is a full charge every day for 4 years, so obviously not a huge concern.

[rarebear.nm]

It's natural to compare EV tow vehicles to their ICE counterparts. However, I find it a little lopsided. Our modern trucks we tow with is the results of about 100 years of experience and improvements. Present EV trucks are in my opinion the Model T of EV trucks. They will under go many improvements and future models will likely be as different as trucks of the 1920s to modern trucks.

The battery packs are unquestionably the major limiting factor. There are many research labs around the world working to build better energy storage devices. Call them batteries if you like but they may not really resemble current batteries. There is so much money to be had for those that come up with a break through product that IMO it's a matter of time. A "battery" with say 10 or 100 fold improvement would not only change the transportation industry but every other technology that uses batteries to power their devices. The payoff for a new solution is very large.

[NewBlackDak]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Lithiums lifetime are rated in cycles until the battery only has 80% of it original capacity. They are still usable obviously that is just the standard.

NMC Lithium Batteries in EV usually get around 1500 full 100%-0% cycles before they hit 80% usable capacity. If however you keep them in the 20%-80% charge range it increases the number of useful cycles quite a bit 3000-6000 I believe which is why its recommended. 1500 cycles is a full charge every day for 4 years, so obviously not a huge concern.

It is for those who refuse to waste their money chasing a new car all the time. Many people will not take the hit of a new car, and some of us expect to get 10 years of useful life from a vehicle. The only vehicle I haven’t had last to that mark was totaled by someone else.
Can’t wait to see what the used car market will look like with a bunch of even lower range EVs.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by rarebear.nm

It's natural to compare EV tow vehicles to their ICE counterparts. However, I find it a little lopsided. Our modern trucks we tow with is the results of about 100 years of experience and improvements. Present EV trucks are in my opinion the Model T of EV trucks. They will under go many improvements and future models will likely be as different as trucks of the 1920s to modern trucks.

The battery packs are unquestionably the major limiting factor. There are many research labs around the world working to build better energy storage devices. Call them batteries if you like but they may not really resemble current batteries. There is so much money to be had for those that come up with a break through product that IMO it's a matter of time. A "battery" with say 10 or 100 fold improvement would not only change the transportation industry but every other technology that uses batteries to power their devices. The payoff for a new solution is very large.

Don’t forget that batteries have been around for 220 years.

[radar]

Originally Posted by NewBlackDak

It is for those who refuse to waste their money chasing a new car all the time. Many people will not take the hit of a new car, and some of us expect to get 10 years of useful life from a vehicle. The only vehicle I haven’t had last to that mark was totaled by someone else.
Can’t wait to see what the used car market will look like with a bunch of even lower range EVs.

Hard to say. But where we are a 5 year old leaf has lost about 30 percent of its value. Not bad. 2 year old Tesla model Y’s sell for what they sold for. But that’s because there is a 10 month waiting list and the price has gone up.

Prices will start falling when more product hits the market. Tesla will build just sort of a million cars this year. Next year that will be about 1.7 million. The extra capacity should push prices down a bit. Model X currently has a 13 month waiting list depending on configuration. But those are more the high end market.

The manufacturer to watch is VW. They are pretty focused on catching Tesla.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by NewBlackDak

It is for those who refuse to waste their money chasing a new car all the time. Many people will not take the hit of a new car, and some of us expect to get 10 years of useful life from a vehicle. The only vehicle I haven’t had last to that mark was totaled by someone else.
Can’t wait to see what the used car market will look like with a bunch of even lower range EVs.

Current packs in Tesla's are conservatively rating at about 400,000 miles and/or 10-20 years with 1500 full 0-100% cycles before they hit 80% capacity depending on how much you drive, its about 5% loss per 100,000 miles.

Really not a big deal for normal cars, more attentions is paid of fleet vehicles but the lack of other routine maintenance ends up putting EV's way ahead even with expensive battery pack replacements at the 400-500 mile mark.

If you baby them by not charging them fully and not running them to 0 as in commuting and charging every night at home most of the time unless you go a long trip then the pack will probably outlive you.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Current packs in Tesla's are conservatively rating at about 400,000 miles and/or 10-20 years with 1500 full 0-100% cycles before they hit 80% capacity depending on how much you drive, its about 5% loss per 100,000 miles.

Really not a big deal for normal cars, more attentions is paid of fleet vehicles but the lack of other routine maintenance ends up putting EV's way ahead even with expensive battery pack replacements at the 400-500 mile mark.

If you baby them by not charging them fully and not running them to 0 as in commuting and charging every night at home most of the time unless you go a long trip then the pack will probably outlive you.

The issue is, the truck may only be capable of towing a trailer 100 miles between every 80-20-80 charge cycle. Doing that for 500,000 miles or 20 years would be a miserable experience.

[radar]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

The issue is, the truck may only be capable of towing a trailer 100 miles between every 80-20-80 charge cycle. Doing that for 500,000 miles or 20 years would be a miserable experience.

True. But at least around here, 1/2 ton trucks are primarily grocery getters and occasionally used for getting a sheet of plywood at homedepot or maybe pulling a utility trailer to the dump. Maybe even pulling an RV or a boat to the local lake. At least for that market they will be fine. A lot of half tons here have never had a ball mount installed in their receiver.

Jmho.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by radar

True. But at least around here, 1/2 ton trucks are primarily grocery getters and occasionally used for getting a sheet of plywood at homedepot or maybe pulling a utility trailer to the dump. Maybe even pulling an RV or a boat to the local lake. At least for that market they will be fine. A lot of half tons here have never had a ball mount installed in their receiver.

Jmho.

The discussion is about towing range, not how the vehicle would function as a grocery getter.

[radar]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

The discussion is about towing range, not how the vehicle would function as a grocery getter.

Agreed. But many use 1/2 tons for shorter less challenging towing needs.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by radar

Agreed. But many use 1/2 tons for shorter less challenging towing needs.

And many don’t. Which is the reason for the discussion.

If we dismiss the shortcomings because they don’t apply to everyone, should we just end the conversation?

[radar]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

And many don’t. Which is the reason for the discussion.

If we dismiss the shortcomings because they don’t apply to everyone, should we just end the conversation?

Good point.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

The issue is, the truck may only be capable of towing a trailer 100 miles between every 80-20-80 charge cycle. Doing that for 500,000 miles or 20 years would be a miserable experience.

You must have misunderstood, 400,000-500,000 miles is doing a full 100-0-100 charge cycle, if you 80-20-80 your looking over a million miles even then your still at 80% capacity.

Agree though 100 mile towing is not that useful for RVing, thats why the Ford Lightning is interesting with its huge 200kwh battery that will likely be 150-200 miles towing depending on trailer wieght and 400 unladen.

Still going to be while before people will do serious long distance towing with an EV its going to take a sufficient high speed charger network and probably 250-300kwh batteries before it just doesn't matter to most. Note the Tesla semi looks to be up around a megawatt hour for 500 miles towing 80k so that a good target for Class A's and whatnot along with forthcoming multi megawatt chargers to recharge in reasonable times.