The reality vs the hype?

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by move on

PHEVs are a nice idea, better range and cheaper than a full BEV, but you still can't make them pay. Maybe you can break even if the proposed $12,500 tax credit subsidy goes through.

There are far too many variables to consider. Our current PHEV had an MSRP of $37,500. The manufacturer offered a discount of $5000. Fed credit was $7500, state rebate was $2500. We were in a new car for about $23,000. At one point the manufacturer was offering $8-10K off and some states, like Colorado offered $5,000 rebates. Washington waved sales tax. The base model was $34,500. Many owners were able to buy these cars for a net cost of less than $20,000. That was a different market.

Driving patterns are another factor. If the car will mostly be used for long trips, it might be a more cost effective solution to buy a non-hybrid car that has a similar fuel economy rating as a PHEV. On the other hand, if the car will be used primarily for commuting, and that driving can be accomplished in EV mode, a PHEV may be the wise choice.

Fuel prices and electricity rates are other considerations. Our cost for a fully charge at home is less than $1.00. It’s tricky to calculate because we have solar. I can charge on either a solar powered/grid backed up circuit (120V) or a non-solar powered circuit (240V). Even if charging is done at night, we may have fed enough kWh’s into the grid to offset the nighttime usage. Over the course of a year the solar offsets about 50% of our usage, so I figure the cost to charge is half of the rate per kWh. We also opportunity charge (free) on occasion. Since our cost at home is so low, we don’t go out of our way to find free charging. A full charge provides at least as much range as a gallon of gas. So right now, we’re paying about $150 for the electricity to drive 8000 miles compared to $1100 for gas.

Just a few things to consider.

[Marine359]

We were planning to buy an EV SUV next year to replace our aging SUV, but not for towing our TT. For that chore we’ll rely on good old Dino powered pickup. Now, we’re not so sure it will work out. We wouldn’t buy one unless we could put a Level 2 charger in our garage. Problem is, a level 2 charger draws 7 Kw, which is double what a normal home uses during daytime. We live in the mountains and I don’t believe our local transformer can handle the load if there is more than one level 2 charger on it.

This raises the question: without massive improvements in grid infrastructure, how many EVs can realistically go into service next year? My son is an energy systems guru and he gets paid to figure this out. He hasn’t. Whoa baby, EVs may cause major problems next year. He says (reading from an official app) that there are so many EVs in California now that peak demand has this year shifted from mid-day to evening hours when people get home from work and plug in their EVs. So it’s now cheaper to recharge in the middle of the day.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by Marine359

We were planning to buy an EV SUV next year to replace our aging SUV, but not for towing our TT. For that chore we’ll rely on good old Dino powered pickup. Now, we’re not so sure it will work out. We wouldn’t buy one unless we could put a Level 2 charger in our garage. Problem is, a level 2 charger draws 7 Kw, which is double what a normal home uses during daytime. We live in the mountains and I don’t believe our local transformer can handle the load if there is more than one level 2 charger on it.

This raises the question: without massive improvements in grid infrastructure, how many EVs can realistically go into service next year? My son is an energy systems guru and he gets paid to figure this out. He hasn’t. Whoa baby, EVs may cause major problems next year. He says (reading from an official app) that there are so many EVs in California now that peak demand has this year shifted from mid-day to evening hours when people get home from work and plug in their EVs. So it’s now cheaper to recharge in the middle of the day.

I’d recommend contacting your power company to determine what can or cannot be used, rather than speculating. A Level 2 device (EVSE) can draw up to 9.6kW, 40A at 240V. The charger is built into the vehicle, the EVSE provides power to the the charger.

There are solutions, programs and apps currently being used to solve this insurmountable dilemma. Smart meters and apps allow power companies to control the loads on individual circuits in a home. Charging can be programmed by the user to take place during off peak hours. That a pretty basic feature and one used by people on a TOU plan. There are many workplace charging opportunities, some power by solar. The installation of solar panels has created a surplus of electricity during mid-day hours. Charging at those times should be encouraged. Also, keep in mind that an EV with a 250-300 mile range would be capable of providing a full week of travel for the average commuter. Many owners won’t plug them in every night and if they did, the car isn’t going to consume 80kWh’s of energy.

[rcoleman]

Say what you want about electric vehicles but Ford is committing $5.6 Billion to build a new F-150 Lightening facility in Tennessee creating 6000 jobs. According to car and driver the wait is about 3 years for F-150 as Ford currently has over 200K reservations. Did I mention that an adapter is available that will allow your F-150 to power your house for 3 days should you loose electricity.



https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...R4KdLTzl1IiFs8



I drive from Maryland to Florida and back twice a year. Used to see 1 or 2 Tesla's, last trip I counted over 200 and that was just on my side of I95. Us old timers can throw FUD but they are a coming and everyone that I have spoken to that has one loves it.

[Tom from CA]

[QUOTE=Kid Gloves;6207246]Easy solution: PHEV. Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

We drive it almost every day. Last time we bought fuel for the car was 6 months ago, 3.5 gallons.

If you have gas in the tank for that long, you might add Sta-Bil or another brand of fuel stabilizer. That can help you avoid engine problems.

[Marine359]

Good info Kid Gloves.
No doubt mid-day supply has increased in California due to the subsidized installation of more renewables. However, although they may not need to, it seems most people do plug in when they get home from work. The chart I saw showed net demand and it is definitely trending way up starting at 5pm, and declining again after midnight. If you look at the trend year over year, it appears at first glance to have increased in the evening hours more than 20% in the last year. I dunno, but seems to me the only way to explain it is more plugged in EVs. I’m not down on EVs; [we really want one] just curious how this can be solved in states that don’t have as much renewables as California. The charts can be viewed by downloading the free app: “ISO Today”.

And yes, I know I need to contact my power company. Just used 7KW as an example because that’s what my son’s Bolt EVSE uses.

[picker]

Originally Posted by AJMike

This sort of confirms my belief that while EVs may be ready for city use they are not ready for long distances. Or at least the infrastructure is not.

Note that the article is from a WSJ writer and only hosted on FoxBusiness.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyl...rging-sleeping

Total EV is idiotic for vehicles (fine for your golf cart)


Hybrid is (until humanity wakes up and goes nuke) is the only way to go.


......based on both cost and conscience........


Watch and learn......all the way to the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk

[dizcom]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I think the issue here is that most new EV users would follow the exact same scenario and have the exact same issues, and I don't think laughing at them and the problems is helpful. People are pointing at the mixed charging equipment as a problem for the infrastructure, and I believe that it is.

I will consider the electric infrastructure ready when all EVs can charge from all chargers and when the chargers are as ubiquitous and usable as the current gas/diesel pumps are. Until then I don't consider the infrastructure ready for use.

The fact that some people who have spent a lot of time and effort to learn where and how to charge don't have this problem does not mean that there is not a problem. Anyone with a new car, gas or diesel, can just drive pretty much anyplace without the concern that they can not find someplace to fill up, and do so quickly. The same thing can not be said about the charger locations.

It’s an absolute riot! I’m still laughing about it. I especially like the part where they unplugged their phones as if that would help! We have an all electric Mach-E. We didn’t spend a lot of time trying to figure out where to charge it. We use the infrastructure all the time, including trips as long as this writer’s. The only problem this writer and anyone who thinks we aren’t already there with electric is imaginary. People pass chargers all the time and don’t realize it. Doesn’t mean they aren’t there and ready to rock.

[Kid Gloves]

[QUOTE=Tom from CA;6212044]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Easy solution: PHEV. Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

We drive it almost every day. Last time we bought fuel for the car was 6 months ago, 3.5 gallons.

If you have gas in the tank for that long, you might add Sta-Bil or another brand of fuel stabilizer. That can help you avoid engine problems.

Thanks. It’s definitely been a topic of discussion on the PHEV/EV forum. One owner runs non-ethanol premium and adds Stabil. I just use 87 Octane and if most of it is still in the tank near the 12 month mark, I’ll just run on gas for a few days. Typically, the car will see a few longer drives within 12 months, so we don’t have to resort to burning gas just so we can go buy more gas.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by Marine359

Good info Kid Gloves.
No doubt mid-day supply has increased in California due to the subsidized installation of more renewables. However, although they may not need to, it seems most people do plug in when they get home from work. The chart I saw showed net demand and it is definitely trending way up starting at 5pm, and declining again after midnight. If you look at the trend year over year, it appears at first glance to have increased in the evening hours more than 20% in the last year. I dunno, but seems to me the only way to explain it is more plugged in EVs. I’m not down on EVs; [we really want one] just curious how this can be solved in states that don’t have as much renewables as California. The charts can be viewed by downloading the free app: “ISO Today”.

And yes, I know I need to contact my power company. Just used 7KW as an example because that’s what my son’s Bolt EVSE uses.

If the increase in usage is indeed due to people charging EV’s, a simple solution is to encourage EV owners to charge during off-peak hours. It’s pretty easy to set a “begin charging” time of say, 1am. Do it once and it’s done. Plug it in a 5pm and it won’t start charging until 1am. If you leave at 7am and charged a 7kW, you’d have added more than 40kWh’s of energy to the battery, all during off peak hours.

Time of Use plans (TOU) are designed to discourage people from using high energy consumption devices during peak demand. There are minor incentives of $50-100/yr to sign up for the “Let the power company control your usage” programs. There are some kinks to work out. It just isn’t that difficult.

[deSanford]

No problem with a Tesla.

[Wilkie65]

Renewables in general are being shoved down our throats. We just travelled through Nebraska and Wyoming which had Windmill farms. We passed a windmill farm that had at least 50+ just sitting. None of them were were generating electricity with a fair amount of wind. NONE
Full disclosure: I am a 3 time Tesla owner which is used to drive short distances (under 200 miles). There is no way I would try to travel cross country in our Model Y. Why? It would add a day or two for charging. Now, think of large RVs or tractor trailers. They would have to stop every 100 or so miles just to recharge. I watched a video of a Rivian pulling an aluminum car hauler with a mustang. They travelled from Chicago to San Diego. Again, every 100 miles they stopped to recharge that averaged 1 hour. Charging time added 2 days to their trip. Battery technology isn’t advanced enough to replace fossil fuels. Maybe 25 years or so but, we aren’t there yet.

[raceday]

What everyone is being told is all the good about EV, not much mention about all the bad. No one will argue that EV may be fine for short runs, some of what’s not being told is cost per miles is more than more ( take all cost). Down time to charge If on a trip. The cost to replace batteries at end of life, what to do with old batteries, we still don’t have a good way to recycle them. For using like we use our campers they don’t get near the mileage you may think. Read last week a guy drove 73 miles pulling his camper before having to recharge with his Honda generator. This is not a argument it’s fact and I could go on but I’m read for bed.

[RossWilliams]

Originally Posted by move on

They didn't mention that it costs up to $40,000 to install a level 3 charger. Nobody in their right mind would ever install one of these thinking they're going to make money off of it, yet the government is spending your money installing them.

If you net $150 per day for a year you have more than paid for it and after that it is almost pure profit. We pay .12 per kwh for electricity and I understand level 3 chargers charge $.40-$.60. With that level of markup its not going to take all that much use to generate $150 if you figure ev's are burning electricity at 3 mpkwh. They don't make financial sense in lightly traveled rural areas with today's level of use but anywhere there is heavy usage you are going to make money. And use is just going to increase in the future.


I think its important to remember that we have (almost) universal electric and phone service only because government initially intervened to pay for it and continues to subsidize it. Same with the internet.