The reality vs the hype?

[Marine359]

Originally Posted by move on

Just a thought. How many charge cables are being stolen? Copper is poor man's gold. Is this going to be a problem, especially today when moral standards seem to be disappearing?

How many gallons of fuel are being stolen out of RVs and Trucks today. It’s rampant and almost out of control. Locking fuel caps don’t help.

[SergioP]

Originally Posted by Marine359

How many gallons of fuel are being stolen out of RVs and Trucks today. It’s rampant and almost out of control. Locking fuel caps don’t help.

Add catalytic converters to that too.

[zbudah]

[QUOTE=Kid Gloves;6207246]Easy solution: PHEV. Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

What is the change your home electric bill?

A good friend had a PHEV Rav4, and in addition to their $800/month payment, their electric bill went from about $120/mo to nearly $400. This is in NYS. They were driving about the 40 mile fully electric limit every day and using it almost exclusively as an EV, plugging it in every night.

The traded it for a Rav4 hybrid, non plug in version and are much happier and saving $$$.

[move on]

[QUOTE=zbudah;6213065]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Easy solution: PHEV. Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

What is the change your home electric bill?

A good friend had a PHEV Rav4, and in addition to their $800/month payment, their electric bill went from about $120/mo to nearly $400. This is in NYS. They were driving about the 40 mile fully electric limit every day and using it almost exclusively as an EV, plugging it in every night.

The traded it for a Rav4 hybrid, non plug in version and are much happier and saving $$$.

The RAV 4 is interesting because the same car is available as an ICEV, a hybrid and a PHEV. Ford Escape, and a few others, too. By comparing the three versions you can get an idea about total cost of ownership. The hybrid and PHEV save you money on gas but they cost more. I once did the math. With the hybrid you break even around 100,000 miles. With the PHEV you will never break even.

[radar]

[QUOTE=zbudah;6213065]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Easy solution: PHEV. Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

What is the change your home electric bill?

A good friend had a PHEV Rav4, and in addition to their $800/month payment, their electric bill went from about $120/mo to nearly $400. This is in NYS. They were driving about the 40 mile fully electric limit every day and using it almost exclusively as an EV, plugging it in every night.

The traded it for a Rav4 hybrid, non plug in version and are much happier and saving $$$.

Ok. But you friend is an extreme case. So let’s say he drives 40 miles per day. And he drives 30 days a month. That’s 1200 miles a month. The average EV gets around 4 miles per kilowatt hour . So roughly 300 kilowatt hours per month. So 300 x .93 = 280 dollars which is what your friend said it costs him to drive on electric. So yah. Good call on his part. But most people pay closer to 10 to 20 cents per kilowatt hour. We pay 9 cents. So yah. Where ever your friend lives where he is paying 93 cents per kilowatt hour is definitely not the place to own an EV. Stick with gas.

That same amount of mileage would cost us around 30 bucks a month as opposed to his 280 bucks. I don’t know where he lives but hopefully he doesn’t need air conditioning. .

And wow, I had no idea electricity was that expensive in the US.

[Kid Gloves]

[QUOTE=zbudah;6213065]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Easy solution: PHEV. Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

What is the change your home electric bill?

A good friend had a PHEV Rav4, and in addition to their $800/month payment, their electric bill went from about $120/mo to nearly $400. This is in NYS. They were driving about the 40 mile fully electric limit every day and using it almost exclusively as an EV, plugging it in every night.

The traded it for a Rav4 hybrid, non plug in version and are much happier and saving $$$.

There has to be more to this story.

40 miles a day, every day for a month would be 1200 miles. The RAV4 Prime has an 18.1KWh battery. Quite likely the BMS allows the user to access 15-16kWh’s of that stored energy. We’ll use the full capacity in this example.

The range of 42 miles indicates that the car travels 2.33 miles per kWh. It would require 515kWh’s to travel 1200 miles. In order for 515kWh’s to increase the electricity bill by $280 (400-120=280) as your good friend states, the cost of electricity would need to be $.54/kWh.

To answer your question. We typically do not drive the PHEV 40 miles each day. If we did, and if we paid the going electricity rate in our area, it would cost $1.40/day or $42/mo. Compare that to 30 gallons of gasoline. Because we have solar panels and net metering, I’ve calculated that our actual cost for a full charge averages out to $.75.

[Kid Gloves]

[QUOTE=move on;6213074]

Originally Posted by zbudah

The RAV 4 is interesting because the same car is available as an ICEV, a hybrid and a PHEV. Ford Escape, and a few others, too. By comparing the three versions you can get an idea about total cost of ownership. The hybrid and PHEV save you money on gas but they cost more. I once did the math. With the hybrid you break even around 100,000 miles. With the PHEV you will never break even.

Would you share your calculations with us? I’d like to know how you come to some of these conclusions.

[move on]

[QUOTE=Kid Gloves;6213098]

Originally Posted by move on

Would you share your calculations with us? I’d like to know how you come to some of these conclusions.

You really need to do it yourself because it depends on your prices of gas, electricity and vehicle subsidies that you may qualify for.

Another way to get a good comparison is to pretend you're getting a car loan on the amount of the hybrid or PHEV premiums and see how much gasoline that can buy you.

Subsidies complicate the issue. There may be a $7500 or more tax rebate available but a lot of people who buy RAV 4's or Escapes don't pay that much in income tax to begin with. Then there are the hidden subsidies created by the CAFE credit system which are very difficult to calculate.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by move on

Yes, but EV technology is not ready to be deployed. Mainly because EVs are very energy inefficient. First we have to get our electric grids in order so that we have lots of excess energy available. Then we can talk about connecting high energy, inefficient consumers to them. Installing chargers before improving the supply of electricity, at great public cost, is really bad planning.

Don’t look up! EV technology is currently being deployed.

For many hours each day and night, our electric grid, even in its current state of disrepair, produces a surplus of electricity. We’ve got coal and gas powered generating stations whirling away shooting out excited electrons that may never find a home. Imagine how happy they’d be if they could find a nice lithium battery to call home. Even those lumps of coal would know that their ultimate sacrifice was not in vain.

Regardless of the source of generation, storing excess energy when it is generated is part of the solution. One day, someone who opposed EV’s might be running their A/C courtesy of someone who owns an EV.

[move on]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Don’t look up! EV technology is currently being deployed.

For many hours each day and night, our electric grid, even in its current state of disrepair, produces a surplus of electricity. We’ve got coal and gas powered generating stations whirling away shooting out excited electrons that may never find a home. Imagine how happy they’d be if they could find a nice lithium battery to call home. Even those lumps of coal would know that their ultimate sacrifice was not in vain.

Regardless of the source of generation, storing excess energy when it is generated is part of the solution. One day, someone who opposed EV’s might be running their A/C courtesy of someone who owns an EV.

I agree that storage is important. Using BEV batteries for grid storage might be helpful if it can ever be coordinated with demand. That's a long way off. Nuclear pumped storage might be a better solution, but large water reservoirs can have problems of their own.

[Kid Gloves]

[QUOTE=move on;6213110]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

You really need to do it yourself because it depends on your prices of gas, electricity and vehicle subsidies that you may qualify for.

Another way to get a good comparison is to pretend you're getting a car loan on the amount of the hybrid or PHEV premiums and see how much gasoline that can buy you.

Subsidies complicate the issue. There may be a $7500 or more tax rebate available but a lot of people who buy RAV 4's or Escapes don't pay that much in income tax to begin with. Then there are the hidden subsidies created by the CAFE credit system which are very difficult to calculate.

Yes, I pointed out many of those variables to you in post #57 after you made a similar blanket statement.

I believe it’s fair to say, if we want to maintain some level of credibility, that we simply can’t make statements like “With the PHEV you’ll never break even.”

[move on]

[QUOTE=Kid Gloves;6213137]

Originally Posted by move on

Yes, I pointed out many of those variables to you in post #57 after you made a similar blanket statement.

I believe it’s fair to say, if we want to maintain some level of credibility, that we simply can’t make statements like “With the PHEV you’ll never break even.”

I'd be willing to look at your calculations showing how much money your PHEV is saving you. I bet I could show you that you're losing money.

I think hybrids make a lot of sense. I don't know why they call them hybrids because all the batteries are doing is making the ICE engines more efficient. The trick with all this technology though is to make something that's not only energy efficient but economical as well. Some hybrids seem to be able to do that. The problem with the PHEV is the cost of the larger (10x) battery, and I can only see this battery cost increasing as the raw materials get scarcer.

[dbircky]

Just keep in mind the $7,500 IS NOT a rebate. It’s a tax credit. Interestingly over 80% of those buying an electric car have an income of over $100,000 per year. The tax credit doesn’t help lower earners reduce the cost of the car, but does subsidize higher earners.

A few manufacturers (GM & Tesla) are now arguing to have the tax credit extended as their vehicles are no longer eligible. Even though there are reported back orders for these vehicles. (Why the need for a taxpayer handout for in demand vehicles selling without this subsidy?).

That’s a 16% discount on the “cheapest” ($46,000) tesla if the buyer can take the full credit. Imagine getting someone else to pay 16% of your next major purchase.

[move on]

The administration wants to increase the EV subsidy to $12,500. Again, only those people who pay that much in tax will get the full benefit.

The biggest scam is the CAFE credit system. This is how Tesla makes their money. They don't make it by selling cars, they make it by selling the credits. Basically, ICEVs are being taxed thousands of dollars and that money is going toward lowering the cost of EVs and PHEVs.