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08-04-2022, 03:42 PM
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#435
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
Not exactly true. An ICEV can be more efficient than a BEV. The best way to understand this is to consider all the heat lost in delivering electricity from the power plant to the EV's wheels. We now have ICEs that are more thermally efficient than the power grid. If the goal is to save energy and reduce emissions then we should be promoting ICEVs.
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I don't know about heat, but it costs about 1/5th the cost to use my EV using public chargers than to use gasoline for the same trip, and less than half of that to charge up at home. Maybe the electric companies haven't been advised of your calculations yet.
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2021 Holiday Rambler Armada 44LE
2021 Jeep Wrangler High Altitude toad w/Ready Brute Elite II
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08-04-2022, 03:44 PM
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#436
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 7,870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
Not exactly true. An ICEV can be more efficient than a BEV. The best way to understand this is to consider all the heat lost in delivering electricity from the power plant to the EV's wheels. We now have ICEs that are more thermally efficient than the power grid. If the goal is to save energy and reduce emissions then we should be promoting ICEVs.
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Agreed. But the quote I was referencing was "at the pump for ICE compared to at the EV hook up"
I referred to "Energy" to vehicle (after ICE fuel is made and after electricity is to the "end user") as discussed on the comparison/post I quoted.
Sorry, dead neutral in this one. Spent my whole career in the automotive field and know "discussions" can be skewed for those with "less than analytical minds".
__________________
Brett Wolfe
Ex: 2003 Alpine 38FDDS. Ex: 1997 Safari Sahara. Ex: 1993 Foretravel U240
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08-04-2022, 04:01 PM
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#437
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizcom
I don't know about heat, but it costs about 1/5th the cost to use my EV using public chargers than to use gasoline for the same trip, and less than half of that to charge up at home. Maybe the electric companies haven't been advised of your calculations yet.
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The electric companies agree with me. This is not rocket science. Anyone can understand it if they try.
Electricity can be cheaper depending upon where you are. The reason is that the fuel is cheaper. Coal is much cheaper than gasoline on a $ per kwh basis, so even if the BEV operating cost is less it is still using more energy and producing more emissions than the ICEV. But you also have to figure in the high cost of battery production. Once you do that the BEV is less economical compared to the ICEV.
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08-04-2022, 04:01 PM
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#438
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizcom
I don't know about heat, but it costs about 1/5th the cost to use my EV using public chargers than to use gasoline for the same trip, and less than half of that to charge up at home. Maybe the electric companies haven't been advised of your calculations yet.
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Two different calculations. One is the costs for energy: Gasoline may be higher per mile than electricity.
The other calculation is the impact on the environment. Since much of the electricity is produced by coal or natural gas, while those fuels may be cheaper than gasoline, they MAY actually put out more pollution per mile than gasoline.
I have no clue about the real calculations here, and frankly, don't trust anyone to actually provide the real calculations. Everyone has an agenda. I just want an affordable method to get from Point A to Point B, in a reasonable amount of time, and everything I read tells me when towing a TT, EV isn't going to meet my criteria.
__________________
2020 Chevy Silverado 1500
Forest River Wildwood XLite 263BHXL
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08-04-2022, 04:07 PM
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#439
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
The electric companies agree with me. This is not rocket science. Anyone can understand it if they try.
Electricity can be cheaper depending upon where you are. The reason is that the fuel is cheaper. Coal is much cheaper than gasoline on a $ per kwh basis, so even if the BEV operating cost is less it is still using more energy and producing more emissions than the ICEV. But you also have to figure in the high cost of battery production. Once you do that the BEV is less economical compared to the ICEV.
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I don't know about rockets, but our EV didn't cost more than a gas powered car and it costs significantly less to run. The rest is moot.
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2021 Holiday Rambler Armada 44LE
2021 Jeep Wrangler High Altitude toad w/Ready Brute Elite II
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08-04-2022, 04:12 PM
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#440
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizcom
I don't know about rockets, but our EV didn't cost more than a gas powered car and it costs significantly less to run. The rest is moot.
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The reason is that EVs are heavily subsidized, mainly through the CAFE credit system. This scheme aslo artificially raises the price of ICEVs so it appears to the consumer that EVs are a good deal.
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08-04-2022, 04:17 PM
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#441
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
The reason is that EVs are heavily subsidized, mainly through the CAFE credit system. This scheme aslo artificially raises the price of ICEVs so it appears to the consumer that EVs are a good deal.
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Well that would make them a good deal, right? Not just make them look like one.
__________________
2021 Holiday Rambler Armada 44LE
2021 Jeep Wrangler High Altitude toad w/Ready Brute Elite II
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08-04-2022, 04:26 PM
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#442
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizcom
Well that would make them a good deal, right? Not just make them look like one.
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Hey. Go for it if you think you're getting a good deal. I'm not against EVs. I'm against EV subsidies. Subsidies distort the marketplace and result in bad products being produced, and we all wind up paying for them through our tax dollars. Then at some point the Ponzi scheme has to come to an end and the whole country suffers.
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08-04-2022, 04:42 PM
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#443
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
Hey. Go for it if you think you're getting a good deal. I'm not against EVs. I'm against EV subsidies. Subsidies distort the marketplace and result in bad products being produced, and we all wind up paying for them through our tax dollars. Then at some point the Ponzi scheme has to come to an end and the whole country suffers.
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You are taking advantage of subsidies right now. I doubt that most people bother to find out just how subsidized they are. If you eat, you are subsidized. It doesn't matter what. We seem to be rolling along just fine. Maybe it's because it's about more than just what is subsidized and what isn't that keeps the place ticking. Or maybe subsidies are part of what keeps it ticking to begin with.
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2021 Holiday Rambler Armada 44LE
2021 Jeep Wrangler High Altitude toad w/Ready Brute Elite II
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08-05-2022, 05:48 AM
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#444
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Ohio
Posts: 532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald
At 10 or 15 cents a KWH you are running on roads paid for by gas tax (until politicians figured out it had a surplus and they put it into general revenue). At some point those same thinking politicians will come to the conclusion that EV users now have to cough up for roads and infrastructure to replace the income from fuel tax. IMO the politicians will look to replace the amount of the tax on a one to one basis plus a small increase for good measure.
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Many states have already put in place gas tax replacements. Ohio charges EVs and PHEVs $200 per year additional and hybrids $100 per year when registering to cover the road use fees.
__________________
RV: 2021 Thor Four Winds 26B on Chevy 4500
Toad: 2019 Ford Fiesta Hatchback
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08-05-2022, 11:02 AM
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#445
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14,885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atreis
Many states have already put in place gas tax replacements. Ohio charges EVs and PHEVs $200 per year additional and hybrids $100 per year when registering to cover the road use fees.
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The numbers in the post I referred to are in a jurisdiction that does not charge a road tax on EV. The have currently put a hold on the sales tax for EV purchase.
While all these incentives are good for those who can afford to purchase and utilize an EV they also use tax dollars that could be used for improving health care, first responders and other critical infrastructure.
I believe the hype about carbon savings for EV will eventually be found to be incorrect when all of the costs associated with them are finally acknowledged.
__________________
Gordon and Janet
Tour 42QD/InTech Stacker
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08-05-2022, 11:16 AM
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#446
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by move on
Hey. Go for it if you think you're getting a good deal. I'm not against EVs. I'm against EV subsidies. Subsidies distort the marketplace and result in bad products being produced, and we all wind up paying for them through our tax dollars. Then at some point the Ponzi scheme has to come to an end and the whole country suffers.
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Anyone who thinks fossil fuels are not subsidized is fooling themself.
https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds
The fossil fuel subsidies are just more hidden or "implicit" rather than explicit.
Everything is connected when you consider the bigger picture of externalities.
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08-05-2022, 04:38 PM
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#447
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 14,885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tetranz
Anyone who thinks fossil fuels are not subsidized is fooling themself.
https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-...0-report-finds
The fossil fuel subsidies are just more hidden or "implicit" rather than explicit.
Everything is connected when you consider the bigger picture of externalities.
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Here there are what could be considered subsidies to most large businesses the jurisdiction is trying to attract. Items like tax reduction or holidays for a period of time, low property taxes, cheap land are offered when there is a payoff such as increased employment.
These incentives have been offered to pulp mills, agri plants, cement plants, and many other manufacturing endeavors. All of which hire local workers at good rates of pay. Who end up paying taxes. While the company is able to recoup some of the development cost. I am unaware of any direct payments of cash to oil companies.
Offering a cash subsidy to encourage a consumer to purchase a specific product is a cat of an entirely different breed. We dont have an EV plant locally so there is no local taxpayer employment or spin off benefits.
__________________
Gordon and Janet
Tour 42QD/InTech Stacker
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08-05-2022, 05:28 PM
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#448
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago Area
Posts: 1,288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizcom
I don't know about heat, but it costs about 1/5th the cost to use my EV using public chargers than to use gasoline for the same trip, and less than half of that to charge up at home. Maybe the electric companies haven't been advised of your calculations yet.
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It comes down to that your EV follows very strict aerodynamic requirements, so you are not really comparing apples to apples. TFL Truck did a towing experiment with EV vs ICE. The EV cost was only slightly less and that was strictly because the extreme gas prices that exist right now. If they had done the same test back in 2020, EV would have cost more.
Secondly we can't just pretend that time is not costly, especially on a trip. If you think about it, the only value you can monetize as a human being is time. The older I get, the less time I have left, so therefore it becomes more valuable.
__________________
2004 AllegroBay 34XB Nov 2017 Banks, Front & Rear Trac bars, Konis
Sold:'83 Revcon Prince 31' FWD GM Performance 502 w/Edelbrock MPFI, Thorley Tri-Ys & Magnaflows, 4L85E 4 spd. Tested to exceed 100 mph.
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