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Old 02-25-2023, 10:10 PM   #43
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Asking about range is too simplistic. It assumes some kind of steady state environmental condition. 300 range miles across the flat plains probably equals 50-70 miles when traveling uphill to any of our mountain-based National Parks. Stopping for a 60-90 minute charge every 90 minutes of driving is not my idea of fun RVing or camping.
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Old 02-26-2023, 06:29 AM   #44
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Asking about range is too simplistic. It assumes some kind of steady state environmental condition. 300 range miles across the flat plains probably equals 50-70 miles when traveling uphill to any of our mountain-based National Parks. Stopping for a 60-90 minute charge every 90 minutes of driving is not my idea of fun RVing or camping.
That would depend on the vehicle I suppose. A typical supercharge stop for us is 20 minutes. And we are always finished charging before we are finished lunch. It’s not that big of a time loser in a day.

As well, our range doesn’t change that much in the BC mountains compared to Alberta or Saskatchewan. All the braking is regenerative so much of the energie goes back in the battery.

That’s been our experience anyway. Your mileage may vary.
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Old 02-26-2023, 07:33 AM   #45
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That would depend on the vehicle I suppose. A typical supercharge stop for us is 20 minutes. And we are always finished charging before we are finished lunch. It’s not that big of a time loser in a day.

As well, our range doesn’t change that much in the BC mountains compared to Alberta or Saskatchewan. All the braking is regenerative so much of the energie goes back in the battery.

That’s been our experience anyway. Your mileage may vary.
Your experience is very valid, however you have made choices that would not suit everyone. As you get into much larger vehicles, your charge times will go up, your initial battery cost goes way up.

I also don't believe the grid is capable of supporting that much energy output as would be needed as more conversion is done. Can you imagine all the semi's competing for charge time, along with your RV? You would need a nuclear power plant at every rest stop.
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Old 02-26-2023, 07:57 AM   #46
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Your experience is very valid, however you have made choices that would not suit everyone. As you get into much larger vehicles, your charge times will go up, your initial battery cost goes way up.

I also don't believe the grid is capable of supporting that much energy output as would be needed as more conversion is done. Can you imagine all the semi's competing for charge time, along with your RV? You would need a nuclear power plant at every rest stop.
Yah maybe. That’s definitely above my pay grade. But certainly our provincial utility has indicated they don’t anticipate any problems with the transition to electric vehicles. They have more details on their website. It’s a 40 year transition of which we are probably 5 or 10 years into already.

Cheers.
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Old 02-26-2023, 11:47 AM   #47
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I remember when compact discs first appeared. The tech was great - accurate, small, less fragile . . .

But for several years, the players were very expensive and high-end (which is what early adopters tend to like), many retailers didn't stock them, many musicians didn't record to them . . .

And so we saw the same sorts of discussions about them then that we see today about EVs. Elitist, expensive, impractical . . .

But better tech usually prevails. They started making players cheaply, retailers recognized a growing market, and music started flowing to CDs. Now my LPs are collector items.

For the bulk of humanity's driving needs, EV is better tech. I read somewhere that, of all daily uses of passenger vehicles in the US, the average trip is less than 9 miles. There will always be needs for more dense energy stores such as used in ICE engines - longer trips, heavier loads - but we'll soon be seeing much cheaper EVs aimed at lower-budget urban users, and a built-out charging system, which will make them ubiquitous. And, given how we're in the infancy of battery development, I'm not counting out that we might be amazed at how well they work in ten years.

I can see a future filled with ultra-compact urban EVs - closer to golf carts, actually - for far less money than a Tesla. They're easier and cheaper to build and maintain, we don't need 100mph beasts for urban driving, they'll be easier to store and park due to their size, their point-of-use emissions will be lower in those urban areas (not commenting on total pollution here), and I bet fed safety regulations get amended to allow such vehicles.

RVing will always be an afterthought in the vehicle world. EV's aren't going to be designed with us in mind - we're not the huge market that will attract the money. But we'll have to figure out how to work within the real world. My only hope is that fake issues don't deprive us of choices.
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Old 02-26-2023, 06:07 PM   #48
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... It’s a 40 year transition of which we are probably 5 or 10 years into already.
Cheers.
That kind of time frame is much more reasonable. With the hard push we are seeing right now, it sounds like the needs will be sooner.
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Old 02-26-2023, 06:25 PM   #49
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That kind of time frame is much more reasonable. With the hard push we are seeing right now, it sounds like the needs will be sooner.
Yah. There will still be gas cars and trucks working their way thru their lifespan in 30 years as people will still be buying new cars and light trucks in 2035. 3/4 tons and 1 tons are not even mentioned for phasing out yet.
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Old 03-02-2023, 06:14 PM   #50
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3/4 tons and 1 tons are not even mentioned for phasing out yet.
GM’s roadmap is to do those last, around 2035. They have H2 in the works (and a long R&D history with it) presumably as a possible solution, but I suspect the engineers are waiting to see how batteries develop.

OTOH they already have announced a 20k lb Silverado EV WT will be released soonish, what’s the max HD towing, 35k or therebouts? The bigger issue is hauling capacity which has nothing to do with power train, other than presently batteries are quite heavy. But they have a bet on semi-solid state that’s looking pretty good, I don’t know the weight spec but being ‘semi’ (e.g. not a full liquid paste electrolyte) it’s fair to expect they’ll be lighter.

This gets to something the chief engineer for the Silverado and the GMC truck (forget the name) said, which is these trucks don’t fit the traditional quarter, half and three quarter ton designation. It’s new, the power and torque capabilities of these blow away all of the above, they’re heavier with all wheel drive pushed out to the corners, plus the weight is all at the lowest point. So they have traction to spare and then some. But they can’t carry too much yet.

Same with the old ‘frame on body’ etc type thinking - she also said this is something different with the structural battery. I suspect the structure is highly engineered such that most components are contributing, so it’s not a dumb simple body on frame kind of thing.

Anyhow while you certainly can’t haul one of those monster fifth wheels with todays EV trucks, you can pull a 30 foot airstream or whatever with ease up and down the worst mountains.

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RVing will always be an afterthought in the vehicle world. EV's aren't going to be designed with us in mind - we're not the huge market that will attract the money.
Oh I don’t know - the biggest buyers of RV’s now are the younger millenial/gen z’s and you can see the new designs are going more electrical, more ‘hip’ and stylish (slowly). Meanwhile Thor, Winnebago and the other biggies have active R&D EV projects, and the lobby group is pushing for tow friendly EV charging. Where there’s $$ there’s a way - today is a different time where catering to the consumer is the first priority with companies.
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Old 03-02-2023, 06:23 PM   #51
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GM’s roadmap is to do those last, around 2035. They have H2 in the works (and a long R&D history with it) presumably as a possible solution, but I suspect the engineers are waiting to see how batteries develop.

OTOH they already have announced a 20k lb Silverado EV WT will be released soonish, what’s the max HD towing, 35k or therebouts? The bigger issue is hauling capacity which has nothing to do with power train, other than presently batteries are quite heavy. But they have a bet on semi-solid state that’s looking pretty good, I don’t know the weight spec but being ‘semi’ (e.g. not a full liquid paste electrolyte) it’s fair to expect they’ll be lighter.

This gets to something the chief engineer for the Silverado and the GMC truck (forget the name) said, which is these trucks don’t fit the traditional quarter, half and three quarter ton designation. It’s new, the power and torque capabilities of these blow away all of the above, they’re heavier with all wheel drive pushed out to the corners, plus the weight is all at the lowest point. So they have traction to spare and then some. But they can’t carry too much yet.

Same with the old ‘frame on body’ etc type thinking - she also said this is something different with the structural battery. I suspect the structure is highly engineered such that most components are contributing, so it’s not a dumb simple body on frame kind of thing.

Anyhow while you certainly can’t haul one of those monster fifth wheels with todays EV trucks, you can pull a 30 foot airstream or whatever with ease up and down the worst mountains.
Yep. The actual towing experience in an EV is superior. The battery capacity/range thing will continue to develop over the next decade or two. Agreed though. The structural battery is going to play a big role.
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Old 03-03-2023, 10:21 PM   #52
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A couple of additional points

As an EV owner for a number of years and someone looking hard at our next Class-B I want to concur with Dan and others.

I have a little insight into BC Hydro and others who are providing base infrastructure for EVs that colors my view. I've also worked in heavy industries where we put 100k per vehicle every year.

Let’s be clear that within the next 2-3 years almost all highway, and other EV fast charging will need pull-thru sites. The main reason is that individuals with mobility needs will need to be accommodated, and the current pull-in parking style sites don’t accommodate wheelchair users. In the US this debate is already starting and your ADA legislation is MUCH stronger than in Canada. The charger that was shown in previous photos as a pull-through was a result of local advocacy within the VEVA group here in Vancouver to BC Hydro. Even many of the fast charge (Charge-Point) street-side stations are now set up for pull-throughs as the City of Vancouver realized this was a lawsuit ready to happen.

Next is the issue of range vs charge time. We personally drive long distances, thru severe weather and mountain passes regularly. The range is ultimately irrelevant, but charge time is key. So a vehicle with 200 miles or less is fine if it supports 200kw plus charging in that 15-20 minute range. All the larger petroleum companies up here (PetroCanada, Shell etc) are only installing charging with 350 or faster charge rates on the highway system. They are specifically thinking about a midsize diesel fleet (Sprinter and larger delivery vehicles) as well as newer cars. Truck stops in the US are also oriented to this market and will adjust once the heavy trucks start to be delivered. That infrastructure will be installed FAST. Power companies across NA are already shifting their high-voltage lines to accommodate. This is in part due to renewables, but mostly due to capacity demand increases in rural areas.

Finally, in the RV fleet, I know everyone wants a pure EV, but I think the sweet spot is still PHEV. The ability to leverage an onboard engine for both range and off-grid charging makes the most sense. Instead of a stupid, noisy, and loud ONAN you can tap that 10-20kw battery for AC and all daily needs, while simply recharging on a very efficient, and built-in, engine, or that 50 amp pedestal that all the 5th wheels or Class A seem to need. I can fully charge my EV at home on 50amps in 6-8 hours. If I had a pure EV Class B today, I would never think about charging, since it is at every RV park already.

As additional context, Toyota is still heavily betting on PHEV as reliable alternating current to support EV vehicles is just not prevalent in most of South America, Africa, India, and South East Asia. If only Toyota had a decent chassis in NA this would be a non-issue today, as most delivery vehicles still spend more time parked than driving.

The Taxi fleets are a great example that shows range is a nonissue, but charge speed is key! Every PHEV or EV cab driver will clearly tell you the reliability, reduced maintenance costs and ability to idle for long periods comfortably trump any perceived advantages of an ICE vehicle.
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Old 03-08-2023, 06:12 PM   #53
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Finally, in the RV fleet, I know everyone wants a pure EV, but I think the sweet spot is still PHEV. The ability to leverage an onboard engine for both range and off-grid charging makes the most sense.
For some uses possibly, but for most people most of the time, in a near future with ubiquitous fast charging I still think BEV is better. In N America we have a culture where more is better, especially with our vehicles. Around here all the monster trucks and SUV’s (HUGE Cadillac SUV’s and Ford trucks) are driven by soccer moms, with one small women in it most of the time. So it’s easy to think fossils and electric is good, but think … what does hybrid buy us over BEV? We can use a gas station, and a vehicle that is the worst of both (neither optimized for electric or ICE), a puny battery, and it’s heavier and more complicated than either too (you still have all the maintenance headaches). All for the ability to go to a gas station … imagine if every gas station has 350V DCFC too, is there really any reason to have ICE or hybrid now for the great majority of driving? I’ve driven EV for six years with zero maintenance other than a pair of tires.

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As additional context, Toyota is still heavily betting on PHEV as reliable alternating current to support EV vehicles is just not prevalent in most of South America, Africa, India, and South East Asia.
Which are all tiny markets, NA is their biggest market by far and they screwed up on BEV’s big time unfortunately. I’ve said it before here maybe, but it makes sense - nobody makes a more reliable ICE vehicle than the Japanese, so of course they keep pushing ICE, H2 and Hybrid. But they literally pushed so hard they fell off the cliff … Toyota is the one company with no N. America IRA plans and so at best they’ll be at the very back of the line.

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The Taxi fleets are a great example that shows range is a nonissue, but charge speed is key! Every PHEV or EV cab driver will clearly tell you the reliability, reduced maintenance costs and ability to idle for long periods comfortably trump any perceived advantages of an ICE vehicle.
I don’t know about that market, but I’ve seen a few writeups saying that given a 200mi-300mi range BEV that’s enough for a shift, then it can just L2 at the garage off shift.

Police also are jumping on board, one here in the States bought a bunch of Teslas and they love it. GM has a law enforcement Blazer coming out soon - the criminals will have to go electric too to avoid getting nabbed by the instant torque cops

Anyhow the key with all of this - personal, recreational/RV, taxi and police is you get a vehicle you can charge overnight for pennies, with years and years of zero maintenance, and greater performance (torque, towing up/down mountain, quiet and tech) than any ICE or Hybrid. I respect your opinion but I do think BEV is better in every way, expect presently we need more and better charging.
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Old 03-08-2023, 06:29 PM   #54
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Poll Answer.. NONE of the Above..



Sorry... NOT!

I will stick with our Diesel with a range of 1200 to 1500 miles between fill ups.
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Old 03-08-2023, 07:06 PM   #55
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Around here all the monster trucks and SUV’s (HUGE Cadillac SUV’s and Ford trucks) are driven by soccer moms, with one small women in it most of the time.
Just because the casual smear offends me somewhat:

I was one of those soccer dads in a Suburban. And a football dad, and a lacrosse dad, and a swimming dad, and a wrestling dad . . . multiple kids, each with four-season participation.

The reason so many of us in the burbs have those Suburbans is because we have kids, and our kids tend to be healthy and active, and the kinds of activities they like involve groups of them being taken to games, practices, meets, fundraisers, meetings about game and fundraisers . . . And they all have various piles of equipment . . .

I, and many of my neighbors, needed and wanted those vehicles, and so we bought them. They worked great.

Now, the kids are older, and so we don't need them or have them anymore. But they were great then.
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Old 03-09-2023, 06:47 AM   #56
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Yep. The actual towing experience in an EV is superior. The battery capacity/range thing will continue to develop over the next decade or two. Agreed though. The structural battery is going to play a big role.
I think this is a dangerous position to make an argument from. Yes, batteries will get bigger and cheaper, that is something that you can trust, but no matter what technology brings, you still must get that energy into the battery. You can only safely supply a limited amount of current from the station to the vehicle being charged. Technology can not overcome physics. Yes, there are now 800 volt based charging systems, but that is already approaching dangerous. Material dielectric strength is a hard limit. I work in voltage in the 1200 to 2000 volt range every day. There is only so much you can do to protect the outside world from these voltages. I can tell you that everyone who works in repair and engineering has been hit at least once in their career. It ain't pretty. Connections age and bad things happen. Even at higher voltages, your charge current is still high, so the stress on the connections is significant.



Secondly, if you consider the total amount of energy we put into our vehicles every time we stop for fuel. Now triple the time demand. This means that every fuel station in America MUST triple in physical size to meet our current demand- and that assumes our population doesn't grow. The required real estate doesn't exist. Maybe out west it does, but not in the high population areas.
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