Where is the Tesla Semi?

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by jharrell

So what your saying is ....... is not actually true even when you shop for a motorhome.



....
The Tesla Model 3 ....
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.

First you say I am myopic and now is sounds like you think I have a problem telling the truth.

I provided you and example of keeping an open mind or not being myopic. DW wanted a bigger MH with slides. A 38' MH is heavier than a 32' MH. I considered the performance on the road of my 32 foot gasser marginal.

The comparison is between a real 38' gasser and 38' DP not a fantasy Tesla EV MH. There are lots of discussion about DP verses gas. Merit on both sides. A little heavier and little more expensive.

A Tesla Model 3 is not a MH. Curb weight is 4200+ ibs. Ana lid $60k +.

A Corolla 3000 ibs and $20k. Buying a Corolla, it gets the job done.

I am a fire safety expert too. I worry about fires when sleeping and sleep 360 days a year in my MH. My MH has two 12 vdc batteries systems that could be a source of a fire. I have redundant some detectors. I am not concerned about the 90 gallons of diesel fuel exploding and killing me in my sleep.

Since an electric MH does not exist there is no safety data for it. I do have one data point. Just sent my old hotspot back. It had been recalled because it was a fire hazard.

So you're telling me not to worry about a battery that release instantaneously the energy equivalent to 90 gallons of diesel fuel?

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by followingsea

First you say I am myopic and now is sounds like you think I have a problem telling the truth.

Well you're certainly not making much sense, first you say more weight and cost makes something a bad design and now you are saying it doesn't, which is it? I said myopic because to say you wouldn't buy something because its heavier and cost more is very narrow and ignores other advantages, then you go and give me example of you buying something heavier and more expensive which proves my point, sorry a real head scratcher there.

Can't you just agree with me on that one, or do you want to keep going around around being wishy washy about it? Sometimes something is worth buying and has a good design even if it's heavier and more expensive than another one because of a whole bunch of other valid reasons, case closed.

Originally Posted by followingsea

So you're telling me not to worry about a battery that release instantaneously the energy equivalent to 90 gallons of diesel fuel?

I'm telling you a fire safety expert would base thier worry on actual safety data. You worry more about EV that is ten times less likely to have a fire than a diesel vehicle, doesn't seem rational.

If a Tesla car battery could release the energy instantaneously it would the same as 200 lbs of TNT, Tesla semi 1800 lbs of TNT , 90 gallons of diesel fuel even more than that, they cannot do that, they can catch on fire and electrocute you but they cannot release it instantaneously, just like diesel fuel can't.

The Tesla has large redundant contactors that must be energized in the battery pack for the output leads to be energized. There is a BMS in the pack that monitors many aspects including any continuity to the frame of the vehicle, cell temperature and voltage throughout the pack etc, if anything is out of spec both positive an negative are disconnected, if one fails closed the other will still cut the circuit. There is a first responder wire under the hood clearly marked that is basically the 12v lead from the 12v system (yes it needs a 12v lead acid battery to function) that if cut will cause all contactors to lose power and disconnect including airbag deployment which causes a cut through a pyrofuse. In addition they have a large pyrotechnic disconnect that blows at over current as a failsafe to backup the contactors. The battery cells themselves are encased in foam in 4 metal modules with the whole thing in another case and extremely hard to tear into.

This is no cheap hotspot battery.

Things can still go wrong, they catch on fire and they are hard to put out, people have died, many more have died from diesel fires, nothings perfect but EV's seem to be safer than ICE vehicles based on the facts to date. I would worry some sleeping in any vehicle with electrical and combustible materials, I worry about propane and electricity in my MH more than anything, except maybe carbon monoxide.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald

It would appear that showmanship may be better than spending dollars.

Those go together. Thomas Alva Edison spend a fair bit of cash publicly electrocuting retired circus animals in an attempt to convince the public that his direct current was safer than the alternating "killer current" system promoted by George Westinghouse (and mostly designed by former Edison employee Nicola Tesla).

"Get your tickets for the the freak show..."

That said, BEV are the current thing (pun intended) and will be for the next 20 or so years. Another New Thing will then come along and our grand kids will complain about things changing, just like we are today.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by jharrell

....

Can't you just agree with me on that one, .....

.....

No, and the good news is that it is a free country and we do not have to agree.

I may not make sense to you, or anyone for that matter, but maybe there are lurkers who get something out of the discussion.

I once wrote a 55 page technical response to regulators. The final approving managers called me and sail it did not make sense to him. I sent a file. It made sense to him. Between my first draft and what went to the regulators, lawyers happened.

Perfect is the energy of good. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. KISS

Sadly this old engineer I lives in a world with engineers young engineers who do not understand the above principles.

Bought the wife a new 2007 Corolla because she wanted a Corolla. Went to the library to research if it was still a good car. We rented one for a week to see if we liked it hver 12 hours behind the wheel. Only mistake was giving to our son when we went to work in China. He will not give it back.

The Corolla is a good well designed car that gets the job done. There is a long list of much more expensive cars. Are they better designs? I do not care!

On that list is the Tesla 3 which you cited. A lot more expensive and a lot heavier.

My engineering judgement says that is a bad design for a 5 passenger car. Will history change my mind? No I will dead 100 years.

Saw a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon drive by in the campground. Your TOAD is 1400 lbs heavier, 30x times more expensive, gets terrible mileage compared to my '95 Honda Civic Del Sol.

Here is the deal, I am happy with what I have and you happy with you have; then it is all good.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by followingsea

No, and the good news is that it is a free country and we do not have to agree.

Yep you are free to be a hypocrite, no problem there.

Car is heavier and more expensive than another car that "gets the job done" so its a bad design, won't buy. MH thats heavier and more expensive than another one that "gets the job done" sounds good to you, will buy.

Tesla model 3 is $40,000 brand new and a Corolla $20,000, both base models.

My MH now lists for $156,000 MSRP (wow they have gone up), Closest cheapest Diesel pusher lists for $281,000 MSRP (Thor Palazzo).

Similar spread, guess they should just stop making those diesel pushers, poor design no one will buy...

Yes that is myopic, there are cheap cars and expensive cars and light cars and heavy cars and people buy them for many different reasons, you have yours, I have mine. Calling one poor design based on that is the definition of myopic, being ok with it in a motorhome but not in a car is the definition of hypocritical.

Now on top of that your trying to make some point about my Jeep, which is not a practical vehicle, then again this is a recreational vehicle forum, none of these vehicles are practical, they are a luxury that we are lucky to have in order to enjoy this great country, so whatever argument you think you have there is laughable, sell your MH and tent camp with your corolla and you might have a point because that also "gets the job done".

Out of all the advances in battery tech by far the biggest advancement happening over the last few years is plummeting costs. I am pretty confident the higher cost that you seem to focus on will not exist in the next few years, it will probably still be heavier for some time, but costs will be similar. At some point there won't be even any myopic arguments to be made against EV's.

[GypsyCoder]

If a BEV could be turned into a reasonable toad I would have one in no time. Looking forward to that electric Jeep Wrangler

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by GypsyCoder

If a BEV could be turned into a reasonable toad I would have one in no time. Looking forward to that electric Jeep Wrangler

Here is the prototype, whats interesting is its a manual transmission, but you don't really have to shift, and it can't stall. Just put it in the gear you want, usually 2-3 three around town and leave it, but off-road you can get just the right gear.

I doubt you would see the manual transmission like that in a production version, probably just a transfer case with high and low range to simplify. Maybe a 3 speed or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU2fWDeZ9oo

[dbircky]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Here is the prototype, whats interesting is its a manual transmission, but you don't really have to shift, and it can't stall. Just put it in the gear you want, usually 2-3 three around town and leave it, but off-road you can get just the right gear.



I doubt you would see the manual transmission like that in a production version, probably just a transfer case with high and low range to simplify. Maybe a 3 speed or something.

Cute. But that’s a conversion not the actual hybrid Jeep is producing.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by dbircky

Cute. But that’s a conversion not the actual hybrid Jeep is producing.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

If I where buying a new toad now, I would be looking very closely at the 4xe. My commute is under 10 miles and my Wrangler is my daily driver. I could easily commute on pure electric and charge it at home. I think many people could commute within its 20-30 mile range and charge at work if they had ability.

It might be the only 4-down capable hybrid and many places we camp its 20-30 mile battery range would cover a large percentage of the trips. Not sure how campgrounds would feel about charging that thing, but wouldn't be a high draw, probably just 15 amps like a heater.

That thing is also extremely fast and fun to drive on and off road due to the horsepower and torque by all accounts.

The main thing that would keep me away from it is the complexity coming from FCA. Always the downside of a hybrid all the complexity of a ICE along with a BEV added to it. Toyota has the experience and the proven quality there if I where getting a hybrid, FCA not so sure about, would like to see how it proves itself for reliability.

Yes it is more expensive and heavier , so is the diesel option I believe they are almost identical in cost. Diesel has its own issues with complexity and its own advantages with efficiency and torque.

I believe the Wrangler 4xe is currently the best selling PHEV on the market right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhTb0_ar2mo

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Having a car that you can actually buy and that people like to drive along with some impressively engineered technology helps as well.

I agree though, I was very skeptical of Tesla for a very long time and Musk still annoys me to no end, but I have to admit he is a good engineer and obviously a good showman, those two things usually don't go together and I think its a big part of his ability to raise the investment money needed and actually deliver the goods even if after significant delays. Same with SpaceX and now Starlink.

There is a lot of empty promises in the EV space right now and outright scams (Nikola), everyone wants in, Tesla is actually delivering (cars at least) and if you dig into the engineering you will see why they have an advantage, for now.

I want to see the semi come out just to see if its possible and what its final specs are, I will also anxiously await the first rich guy to get one and make into a Super C, again just to see if it's possible and how it performs.

I have no illusions I will be able to buy an affordable electric class A any time soon or the that an electric semi will take over the trucking industry any time soon, I do think it will happen in time though, the ICE in a vehicle is reaching the end of the road.

An Electric Jeep Wrangler however as a toad I could see that being my next vehicle should one exist in the next 5-10 years.

Listening to a car show this morning and they say Jeep has or is developing an electric Jeep with a manual transmission. The broadcast had opposing views with some questioning the validity of a transmission. Who knows.

Personally I think an electric engine has many benefits. Power, quiet, clean.

I do have issues when the big selling point is a mandated transition to the technology. If the new technology is that good a natural growth will occur.

No politician ever said horses will not be sold after a given date.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Yep you are free to be a hypocrite, no problem there.

......

My MH now lists for $156,000 MSRP (wow they have gone up), Closest cheapest Diesel pusher lists for $281,000 MSRP (Thor Palazzo).

Similar spread, guess they should just stop making those diesel pushers, poor design no one will buy...

.......

You may want to look up the definition of hypocrite. I suspect you are getting upset about things I did not say and assumptions you make about me.

My wife and I have tent camped. We also boat camped. We also stayed in a $400/night hotel in Singapore. The moment I realized DW would not be with me much longer, was the moment I stopped saving for retirement.

Family comes first. We liked living in a MH because it allowed us to visit family and also travel

When I make a major purchase such as a house or new car I do a cost benefit analyses. Making DW happy is a benefit. Driving a MH that handles better is also a benefit.

I did look up the MSRP of the HR Endeavor DW wanted in both the gas and diesel. You are correct there was a hefty price thread.

One of the reasons I bought it. Amortized over 20 years and 100k miles the cost spread was not significant for me.

So my DP with 187,000 miles being my full time home is a very practical and cost effective retirement lifestyle.

Notice I used the present tense of the verb.

On the other had, BEV are a bad design. They belong in the museum of bad ideas.

Even if you come up with a free battery that is feather light, still a bad idea.

The ICE is great. Coal, natural gas, and nuclear are great ways to make electricity. There is no problem.

Sure you can make electricity with wind and solar and charge a BEV. But why would you?

Lots of problems which is why advocates are talk about making great progress.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by followingsea

You may want to look up the definition of hypocrite.

Hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

Originally Posted by followingsea

You just described a bad design. Cost and weight is good enough reasons for me not to buy a BEV.

Originally Posted by followingsea

I determined that a DP was worth the extra cost for handling and climbing hills but DW was not happy about that.

This whole thing is just big example of Brandolini's law

Arguing safety standards and word definitions with someone who just says no you wrong and can't even articulate why with actual facts is not productive.

I get it you don't like a BEV and won't have one, I won't spend any more effort trying to convince you otherwise with facts it's obviously a pointless excerise.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.





This whole thing is just big example of Brandolini's law

Arguing safety standards and word definitions with someone who just says no you wrong and can't even articulate why with actual facts is not productive.

I get it you don't like a BEV and won't have one, I won't spend any more effort trying to convince you otherwise with facts it's obviously a pointless excerise.

He has one opinion, you have another. That doesn't make him a hypocrite.