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Old 06-22-2021, 05:17 PM   #113
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Well my friend I think you and I disagree on this angle. But thatís ok. Discussion is good. In my opinion most people who are buying EVís buy them for reasons like performance, convenience and tech. And for some with long commutes who buy on payments the fuel and maintenance savings are as much as the payment essentially making the car free. I run into VERY FEW EV drivers that have any kind of climate change agenda (including me). But many do like the clean air aspect of them. Garages that donít stink. Power on tap. Quiet. EVís arenít a little better. They are A LOT better.



Re subsidies. I have no problem with reasonable subsidies in either the petroleum or alternative energy industries. There is a place for government leadership. That is working well for us in B.C. in my opinion And after all Iím a a socialist (but donít hold that against me).



Either way itís fun watching the new tech and as always itís always a pleasure discussing it with you. You bring some good observations to the discussion.



Cheers and stay safe on the road.
It is funny how a lot of the EV people have a misconception on where the lithium comes from and have no idea the damage that lithium mines do to the environment.
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Old 06-22-2021, 06:25 PM   #114
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It is funny how a lot of the EV people have a misconception on where the lithium comes from and have no idea the damage that lithium mines do to the environment.
I would think thatís probably the same for people driving fossil fuelled vehicles. Many probably have no idea how destructive the petroleum industry has been to the environment, the oil wars, millions of lost lives, entire regions decimated etc. Most of the world lives in a bubble. Iím no different. Lots of things I donít know about.
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Old 06-23-2021, 06:10 AM   #115
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You got that right. Whatever koolaid you drink is the side you are on. No one on this thread really has any idea what the truth is, if they did they would be working so hard for some big company they wouldn't have time to post here.

The thread is about the Tesla Class 8 truck, but nobody is talking about it. Talking about the capabilities/ pros/ cons of the Tesla car has nothing to do with the truck. Neither does the majority of the other points raised in this thread.
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Old 06-24-2021, 07:26 AM   #116
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I don't think we're ever going to see a Tesla class 8 truck, at least not for long-haul operations. The same for battery powered motor homes. The large batteries required are simply too heavy, too expensive and too environmentally unfriendly.

That is not to say we won't see some degree of electrification taking place. I believe that the idea of putting a motor/generator into the transmission housing, connected to a relatively small inverter and lithium ion battery, similar to the F-150 Hybrid or Mercedes EQ Boost system, can make a lot of sense for larger on-road vehicles. This will enable you to go up a hill with power boost and down a hill with regenerative braking, resulting in a steady speed without having to have an oversized engine. It also lets you get rid of the starter, alternator and all the engine driven belts (A/C, PS, etc.). For city driving you can have smooth, seamless start-stop which will save quite a bit of fuel and eliminate unnecessary idling and emissions. A byproduct of this is that you can have a free generator to use for auxiliary purposes. The F-150 Hybrid gives you 7.2 KW, i.e., more than a 50 amp hookup. For semis carrying produce it can power the refrigeration system. Motor homes will be able to eliminate the onboard generators. The cost of the electrification is small (about 5k for the F-150, which is offset by a 20% increase in MPG). No government subsidies will be necessary to make this work. It will occur through natural market forces.
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Old 06-24-2021, 02:19 PM   #117
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.... The cost of the electrification is small (about 5k for the F-150, which is offset by a 20% increase in MPG). ......
Ideas on paper alway cost less and work better than actual performance.

Then the benefit depends on the capacity factor. If a delivery truck gord up and down the same hill 50 times a day/356 days a year it will have a high CF but an RV that goes over that hill twice a year will have a low CF.

Energy and money saving has a great emotional appeal. Commercial fleet managers will calculate the savings to determine the payback period. Government fleet managers will pass the cost of 'feel good' solutions to taxpayers.
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Old 06-24-2021, 03:28 PM   #118
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Ideas on paper alway cost less and work better than actual performance.

Then the benefit depends on the capacity factor. If a delivery truck gord up and down the same hill 50 times a day/356 days a year it will have a high CF but an RV that goes over that hill twice a year will have a low CF.

Energy and money saving has a great emotional appeal. Commercial fleet managers will calculate the savings to determine the payback period. Government fleet managers will pass the cost of 'feel good' solutions to taxpayers.
You're right. In the end an idea has to prove itself in actual practice and without subsidies in order to be considered a success. I'm thinking it might be possible in this case, but only time will tell.
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Old 07-04-2021, 02:11 AM   #119
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I just love these debates!
There are so many cliches and talking points that it makes no sense to reference because everyone can cabbage on to a nuance and run with it.
My takeaway:
1. What in this country hasnít been ďsubsidizedĒ? e.g. religion, agriculture, infrastructure, etc.? (thereís a lot of depth in those three if you want to dig into it)
2. As far as conversion to EV goes, it really boggles my mind why the argument doesnít really emphasize MAINTENANCE, MAINTENANCE, MAINTENANCE!!! (No oil, no anti-freeze, no exhaust system, no fuel/oil-filters, VERY minimal brake attention, etc.)
3. Zero to sixty. Period. I dare you to try it.
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Old 07-04-2021, 03:49 PM   #120
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....MAINTENANCE, MAINTENANCE, MAINTENANCE!!! .....
The way to win a debate is make a long list of reasons and challenge someone to refute them. I am an engineer and will lose a debate every time to a lawyer.

If you have an EV, you needed a nuke power plant engineer. Of course the anti-nuke lawyer will explain that you use a solar panel on the roof to drive all night.

As a engineer it only takes one reason for something to be a really bad idea.

As for maintenance on my MH, the most expensive maintenance item is 6 semi truck tires. I know what load my tires carry and I have weighed my MH at the scales. I would suspect more batteries would have an effect tire maintenance.

I do not know the answer. I do not have a problem with subsidizing things so we can learn the answers.

One of my favorite renewable energy technologies for transportation is gasifiers. Used by farmers during times of crisis like WWII. Every energy crisis out goverment funds gasifier research. I look forward to reading the results but they are always the same. Got to have a crisis.

This time around biofuel production is working pretty good and can be sued with the existing infrastructure. BEV and hydrogen fuel are doomed by the second law of thermodynamics and the productivity of the American farmer.
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Old 07-19-2021, 07:41 PM   #121
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EU is planning to phase out all internal combustion engines in cars by 2035. Unless there are big diesel biofuel advancements (and there may well be) it'll soon be trucks too.
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Old 07-20-2021, 01:23 AM   #122
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EU is planning to phase out all internal combustion engines in cars by 2035. Unless there are big diesel biofuel advancements (and there may well be) it'll soon be trucks too.
There is indeed some interesting innovation taking place with regard to the internal combustion engine. The goal is to achieve a thermal efficiency of over 50%. The average electric grid has a thermal efficiency of only 30% so this would render the battery powered vehicle obsolete. It's not just a pipe dream. 50% has already been achieved using hybrid technology. Mercedes is already using it in their Formula One engine so it is very possible we could see it in common cars and trucks before 2035.
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Old 07-20-2021, 10:22 AM   #123
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EU is planning to phase out all internal combustion engines in cars by 2035. Unless there are big diesel biofuel advancements (and there may well be) it'll soon be trucks too.
A lot can happen in 14 years one way or the other.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:22 PM   #124
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EU is planning to phase out all internal combustion engines in cars by 2035. Unless there are big diesel biofuel advancements (and there may well be) it'll soon be trucks too.
There is as huge difference between saying you are going to do something and actually doing something.

If you have read the 2005 Energy Bill (would have been 2001 Energy Bill except 9/11 changed priorities) and look at results today you will see there are winners and losers.

Biofuels for transportation is an example of a winner. US farmers demonstrated they can produce it, it is now just a question of how much we should produce. I think US farmers would be willing to provide all the biodiesel the EU would pay for.

At one point there were 36 new nuclear reactors on the NRC docket. However, exploration for natural gas won the race for providing cheaper electricity.

When it comes to voting blocks, American farmers are huge Tesla owners are tiny. I personally have a lot of respect for American farmers and their ability to execute a plant to grow stuff.

On the other hand I find little evidence that they even know what a plan is in the EU.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:35 PM   #125
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The large batteries required are simply too heavy, too expensive and too environmentally unfriendly.

This to will change.
I remember reading a quote incorrectly attributed to the Saudi oil minister a number of years ago. It went something like this; "The stone age didn't end for lack of stone and the oil age won't end for lack of oil." The upshot being that some other technology will supplant oil, and electric is making great strides. Yes batteries have mineral extraction issues but I do believe these will be solved. About 20 years ago I heard of one of the large Japanese electronics companies experimenting with water and sand for electrical power. I have never seen this come to market but graphene is making great strides right now. This doesn't even begin to address the simplicity of electric vehicles.


Here's a history of the quote: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/01/07/stone-age/
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:09 PM   #126
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This to will change.
....electric is making great strides. .....


....
ICE has made great strides. My first car was a '60 Ford Falcon. It was done at 100k miles. My TOAD is '95 Honda Del Sol going strong at 200k.

My Cummins ISB is also going strong as it approaches 200k. Tesla is not in the running.

In engineering terms, the ICE converts the thermal energy to work.

A battery only stores electric energy. To make electric power, thermal energy is converted to work using a steam turbine to drive a generator.

Spent 50 years making electricity. My industry does such a great job making electricity that most people do not know much about how it is made.

Yes electricity is great. Storing electricity is not for transportation.
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