Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > MOTORHOME FORUMS > Electric RVs and EV Charging
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-26-2021, 10:05 AM   #155
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
Talking about subsidies, there are no subsidies to the petroleum industry. You get to deduct your costs from your revenue and then you pay the tax like every other industry.

As far as EVs go, the subsidies are enormous. I'm not even talking about the $7500 federal tax credit for individuals. The way they are subsidized is through CAFE credits. Did you know that Tesla makes zero $ on selling EVs but they make hundreds of millions selling CAFE credits to other manufacturers? That would not be a problem by itself but the CAFE credit calculations are skewed to greatly favor EVs while hiding it from the public. Then there are the subsidies for charging stations that are hidden in your electric bill. The list goes on. If these subsidies are ever pulled the EV industry is destined for the trash heap of history.
move on is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-26-2021, 10:13 AM   #156
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
Talking about subsidies, there are no subsidies to the petroleum industry. You get to deduct your costs from your revenue and then you pay the tax like every other industry.
Really no subsidies at all?:

https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fac...societal-costs
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 10:22 AM   #157
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharrell View Post
Your are referring to turbo-compounding which has been around since WW2 but we do have the benefit of of electrical turbo compounding now days, however I can find no reference of a MGU-H allowing 50+% thermal efficiency. Since its uses exhaust gases directly to drive the MGU-H it needs high exhaust temperatures otherwise it has poor energy capture it also does not capture waste heat from the rest of the engine only exhaust gas expansion.

Freightliner went with a Rakine cycle (steam turbine) system because it captures heat from the exhaust and the engine itself along with being able to convert more of the heat to useful work at lower temperatures, they actually achieved 50% thermal efficiency.

Freightliner also tried an electric heat recovery turbine (Still steam powered) and went with the direct mechanical drive just like the old WW2 turbo-compounders, because it was more efficient (recovered more power) for highway cruise which is whats important for a semi and a RV. Hybrid systems have little use at highway cruise with a diesel engine.

This is their system to achieve 50% thermal efficiency in a heavy highway vehicle, which is what power plants use on a larger scale to achieve 60+%,just please the diesel engine with a natural gas turbine:

Attachment 337324
The steam cycle on the diesel engine looks nice on paper but I would agree it's looks too cumbersome to make it into the auto market. The MGU-H is compact enough to use on a Formula One car, helping to get 1000 HP out of a 1600 cc engine. Look up "Mercedes Formula One thermal efficiency". I believe we'll see 50% thermal efficiency in road cars in the next couple of years.
move on is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 10:56 AM   #158
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
The steam cycle on the diesel engine looks nice on paper but I would agree it's looks too cumbersome to make it into the auto market. The MGU-H is compact enough to use on a Formula One car, helping to get 1000 HP out of a 1600 cc engine. Look up "Mercedes Formula One thermal efficiency". I believe we'll see 50% thermal efficiency in road cars in the next couple of years.
It is impressive but the MGU-H is only part of the efficiency gain, the other half is turbulent jet injection. Also MGU-H aren't used in oval racing because the speeds aren't varying much just like highway driving the hybrid system doesn't help much, the reason the F1 car is getting such great efficiency gains with the MGU-H is its ability store energy along with regenerative braking then use it in bursts to accelerate again, in many ways just like a hybrid in city driving where they shine.

This is why Freightliner didn't bother with a MGU-H in the super truck, electrical hybrid systems offer little advantage at highway cruise. If you are doing mostly highway driving the hybrid system is dead weight, you have a small BEV system you're not using for anything.
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:15 AM   #159
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharrell View Post
It is impressive but the MGU-H is only part of the efficiency gain, the other half is turbulent jet injection. Also MGU-H aren't used in oval racing because the speeds aren't varying much just like highway driving the hybrid system doesn't help much, the reason the F1 car is getting such great efficiency gains with the MGU-H is its ability store energy along with regenerative braking then use it in bursts to accelerate again, in many ways just like a hybrid in city driving where they shine.

This is why Freightliner didn't bother with a MGU-H in the super truck, electrical hybrid systems offer little advantage at highway cruise. If you are doing mostly highway driving the hybrid system is dead weight, you have a small BEV system you're not using for anything.
Agree. A vehicle driving down a highway at fixed speed can have an engine and drive train tuned for that speed and it can achieve a very high efficiency. I do see some value in hybridization though. Semis are very annoying to be around in hill country. They go 40 mph uphill and 80 mph downhill. That could be smoothed out with hybridization. Then there are other savings like running the trailer refrigeration unit and other accessories. Hybridization doesn't have to cost very much so I think we'll be seeing more of it even on semis.
move on is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:29 AM   #160
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Washington
Posts: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharrell View Post
Someone will get a Semi and extend the frame and make a Super C just prove it can be done. Will be quite a while before anyone does it commercially as an RV, Tesla won't warranty / service anything like that.

There won't be much interest in the RV space until the charging infrastructure is there. If / when they can get 3 megawatt HPCVC going then your looking at under 20 minute recharge is gets close to the usual fill up times I see in the RV lanes. 500 miles range is in the ballpark too, its the range my RV has and thats basically all day driving. I usually fill up at 250-300 miles.
50amp connections would more than charge that thing overnight... You don't need a supercharger or mega charger unless you are in a hurry.
I will never be able to afford a Tesla SuperC, but it certainly sounds cool!
__________________
2003 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
JohnLoves2Sk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:35 AM   #161
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLoves2Sk View Post
50amp connections would more than charge that thing overnight... You don't need a supercharger or mega charger unless you are in a hurry.
I will never be able to afford a Tesla SuperC, but it certainly sounds cool!
Yeah no, do the math, we are talking a 900 kWh battery, 50 amp campground service is 12kw (50a*240v), so you get 12 kWh per hour out of it with perfect charger, you can put at most 96 kWh in the battery in 8 hours or a little over 10%. If you are even at half full your talking 34+ hours of charging, subtract 2-3 kw for air conditioning and everything else and its even longer.

Fine if your there for a few days I guess.
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:48 AM   #162
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
Semis are very annoying to be around in hill country. They go 40 mph uphill and 80 mph downhill. That could be smoothed out with hybridization. Then there are other savings like running the trailer refrigeration unit and other accessories. Hybridization doesn't have to cost very much so I think we'll be seeing more of it even on semis.
Annoying isn't normally part of the ROI calculations truckers make but maintenance and reliability is, hybrid systems add complexity and cost to the vehicle with little gains in highway driving, for urban delivery maybe, I have only seen hybrid system with diesel on city buses which are extreme stop and go duty cycles, but then pure EV's are better for fixed route stop and go by far, which is why you see electric buses now, they also have better burst power and acceleration so are less annoying for everyone.

Regen helps very little even hill driving, you can store some energy and it get it back but its just not enough to make the hybrid system worth while, just letting the truck slow down then speed back up and keeping off the brakes is a simpler more efficient system. The only time your wasting energy is braking (normal or engine) if you can coast up to speed without having to use the brakes on a downhill your more efficient than regenerative.
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:48 AM   #163
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharrell View Post
Yeah no, do the math, we are talking a 900 kWh battery, 50 amp campground service is 12kw (50a*240v), so you get 12 kWh per hour out of it with perfect charger, you can put at most 96 kWh in the battery in 8 hours or a little over 10%. If you are even at half full your talking 34+ hours of charging, subtract 2-3 kw for air conditioning and everything else and its even longer.

Fine if your there for a few days I guess.
Here's the math: 900 KWH x $137 per KWH = $123,300. Nobody will ever put one of these into an RV.
move on is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 11:56 AM   #164
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
Here's the math: 900 KWH x $137 per KWH = $123,300. Nobody will ever put one of these into an RV.
There you go again with "ever" biggest change in the battery world right now is prices falling, its was $221 per kWh in 2017.

Electricity is currently half the price of diesel on average for the same resulting power.

Generator and house batteries no longer necessary.

The most expensive Rv's are 2 million dollars, the battery would be 5% of the cost, that is where you will see them first.
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 12:14 PM   #165
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 1,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by jharrell View Post
There you go again with "ever" biggest change in the battery world right now is prices falling, its was $221 per kWh in 2017.

Electricity is currently half the price of diesel on average for the same resulting power.

Generator and house batteries no longer necessary.

The most expensive Rv's are 2 million dollars, the battery would be 5% of the cost, that is where you will see them first.
You keep on saying that battery prices are going down. They are already as far down as they're ever going to go. They will only go up from here as the nickel and cobalt start running out.

By the way, that $123,000 will buy you 41,000 gallons of diesel fuel.
move on is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 12:54 PM   #166
Senior Member
 
dbircky's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Solo Rvers Club
Coastal Campers
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 1,761
41,000 gallons of fuel is about 33,000,000 miles in my DP. Doesn’t appear that batteries are very cost effective. Wonder if I have enough time to drive more than that. If I start now and never stop that’s only 62 years of continuous driving.
__________________
2009 Monaco Camelot 42PDQ
2011 JK
dbircky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 12:59 PM   #167
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
They are already as far down as they're ever going to go.
Seriously how can you say this with a straight face, there is no indication that battery price have stopped going down and will not go any lower ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
They will only go up from here as the nickel and cobalt start running out.
Nickel and Cobalt aren't running out and batteries are highly recyclable (80-90%). Iron Phosphate are approaching NMC cells in energy density quickly which Tesla is already using in some models, this will reduce cobalt and nickel reliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by move on View Post
By the way, that $123,000 will buy you 41,000 gallons of diesel fuel.
Truckers will go through 14,000 gallons a year so that 3 years worth of fuel. There is also less maintenance (oil changes etc). Tesla is claiming $1.20 per mile for the Semi vs $1.50 for a diesel over all. So at 30 cents a mile you're looking at 400k miles to pay for the battery or 4 years but of course the whole semi is $180,000 so it's paid for in 6 years from cost savings.
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2021, 01:02 PM   #168
Senior Member
 
jharrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 2,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbircky View Post
41,000 gallons of fuel is about 33,000,000 miles in my DP.
Wow your DP gets 800 miles per gallon, amazing.
__________________
2022 Thor Palazzo 33.5
2016 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad - Readybrute Elite Towbar
jharrell is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Modular Class A. Built on Tesla semi. Interesting read. radar Class A Motorhome Discussions 3 10-05-2020 08:32 AM
Tesla Semi Test Mule caught at supercharger. Video. radar Trailer Towing and Tow Vehicles Discussion 12 12-06-2018 10:40 AM
Tesla to unveil household Battery within months CountryFit Going Green 9 05-10-2015 04:16 PM
Tesla T3212 smarty Toy Haulers Discussion 1 11-27-2014 09:05 AM
EverGreen Unveils Full-Sized Tesla Toy Hauler DriVer RV Industry Press 3 06-07-2014 02:03 PM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.