Hallmark versus Outfitter

[camper69]

I have read everything possible about the campers that these 2 companies produce. I have talked to people at both of these facilities. I am also very aware of the history of these companies and how they use to be one. I live a long ways from Colorado and it is not practical for me to visit both the companies to make a decision. I have owned several hard shell truck campers in the past and I definitely want a slide on pop up. Far and away, these 2 companies represent the best in slide in pop up campers. While similar, they are constructed very differently. What I would like to hear are opinions from people who are familar with both products. If you ask one company about the other, neither hass anything good to say about the other. Apparently, there is some 'bad' blood between them. The end result is that as consumer I am left wondering who make the better product. I'm impressed with Hallmark's composite structure but I am still unsure about which camper to choose. I welcome any comments from anyone regarding the quality and reliability of either of these campers.

[camper69]

I have read everything possible about the campers that these 2 companies produce. I have talked to people at both of these facilities. I am also very aware of the history of these companies and how they use to be one. I live a long ways from Colorado and it is not practical for me to visit both the companies to make a decision. I have owned several hard shell truck campers in the past and I definitely want a slide on pop up. Far and away, these 2 companies represent the best in slide in pop up campers. While similar, they are constructed very differently. What I would like to hear are opinions from people who are familar with both products. If you ask one company about the other, neither hass anything good to say about the other. Apparently, there is some 'bad' blood between them. The end result is that as consumer I am left wondering who make the better product. I'm impressed with Hallmark's composite structure but I am still unsure about which camper to choose. I welcome any comments from anyone regarding the quality and reliability of either of these campers.

[Hemi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">camper69 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
camper69
While I have no experience with either camper, I did go to the web pages to have a look. As far as I can see the main difference is that the Hallmark uses a solid roof (carbon fiber fiberglass) while the Outfitter uses the rubber roof.

We own a Bigfoot truck camper since 2000 when we bought it new. It has the rubber roof which while never leaked does require maintenance on about a 3-4 year time scale. At the end of that time interval I apply a Dicor (brand name and recommended for any of the rubber-type roofs) sealant around the edges where the rubber roof material joins the solid part of the camper. This may or may not be a consideration for you but I thought I would bring it up.

Both units look excellent in terms of construction detail...

Good luck, HEMI

[camper69]

Hemi
I am well aware of the new carbon fiber roof on the Hallmark units. That is a huge plus in my opinion but the design factors between the 2 units (basement water compartment with a higher center of gravity, aluminum framing, etc.) and the viability of the 2 companies make this decision a little more complex. I appreciate your input but what I am hoping to find is someone who has looked personally at both companies and the products they offer.
Camper69

[BradW]

I don't own a pop-up TC, but I did tour the Hallmark factory back in 1995.

From what I have read, I believe both brands are very well made campers. Like you said, there is bad blood between the too companies and I would discount any negative statements that one company makes about the other.

Good Luck,
Brad

[Trails2004]

Hello Camper69

I do own a Hallmark camper. My wife and I purchased a very clean 2004 Cuchara from a local RV Dealer. The camper was actaully my neighbors that they had traded in on a 5er.

I tell you this because Hallmark service's what they sell. I had a question on the rubber roof material and they asked that I stop by for a roof inspection. I live over 6 hours from Denver, my wife and I had planned to trip to the Denver area, so stopping by Hallmark was not a big deal for us as I wanted to see the new showroom anyway!. Which I must say is really nice, you can compare models indoors.

After the "complimetary" roof re-seal and inspection, Mr. Ward advised me that if I had any problems with the roof they would replace with the new carbon fiber roof. I was completly taken back by this offer. Remember, this is a used camper I had no idea that Hallmark would offer to take care of the roof.

I have also visted Outfitter, the basement model is interesting, but it is not for me as the area we frequent requires some tight manuvering through trees and rocks. Please do not get me wrong, some folks like a larger and taller unit and I do not want to bash another manufacture. I prefer the tried and true construction techniques that Hallmark employs, what works for modern aircraft,and corvette's is also good for me!

We really enjoy our Hallmark camper, it is laid out well and fits our lifestyle. Customer service before and AFTER the sale, is very important to me. Hallmark's product and customer service is second to none.

Hopefully this has helped you! Please give Hallmark a call.

Edit Spelling

[Steve_in_29]

I am new here but hopefully this will answer some of your questions.

I currently own an Outfitter Apex9.5. This is actually our second Outfitter as we owned an Apex8 for two years before this and we have been very pleased with both of them. Both campers were purchased from over 1000miles away (I live in SoCal) via phone/email and the process went very smooth (we did take delivery at the factory though). I heavily optioned/mod'ed both campers and would happily discuss this further if you like. Outfitter is extremely modification friendly and if-it-can-be-done they will pretty much accommodate anything you can dream up. Believe me I know, since both my campers pushed the envelope on this and I currently hold the record for most optioned/expensive camper they have built. We had no issues with our previous Apex8 (in fact Bob had our old camper resold within a couple of weeks) and the only reason we traded was due to a number of factors that came together to allow us to afford the switch to what we feel is their best model.

Outfitter uses a tried and true welded aluminum frame that is a strong as anything in the industry. Their rubber roof is an industry standard (even on high-end RVs) and very durable. Plus if you do happen to damage a rubber roof there are readily available patches that can make a quick, permanent repair. Their methods allow them to offer a lifetime structural warranty (can't get any better then that) to the original owner and I have known them to work with subsequent owners to fix things at the lowest possible cost. Besides construction materials the biggest difference between the brands is that Outfitter has a heated basement which allows true worry-free, 4-season use and keeps the tanks from intruding on interior storage space. Even with the basement the Outfitter is only 4" taller then the hallmark (as per both companies websites). The extra weight of the basement, down low in the truck's bed, more then offsets the small increase in overall height as far as COG goes, so the on road manners are pretty much even between the two and you would be HARD pressed to find a back country spot that one could get into that the other couldn't. With my Apex I have been able to maintain 80+mph on twisty mountain highways with complete confidence and the truck barely knew the camper was back there. The other big difference is that Outfitter offers a N/S cabover bed which keeps you and your significant other from having to crawl over each other to get up in the middle of the night. The Outfitter has one of the largest (usable space) wetbaths of any camper and is also available with several options that hallmark doesn't offer, such as the Tundra 12V marine fridge and a Thetford cassette toilet (this is NOT a porta-potti). As for reliability, my previous Bounder Class A (made by the largest RV manufacturer in the world) required WAY more work then my Outfitters have. If you haven't seen an Outfitter in person, give Bob a call and he can put you in touch with an owner local to you (or at least closer then CO) that would let you check out their camper (most are more then happy to do so).

While I haven't owned one we did consider hallmark (along with several others) when we were deciding on our first camper prior to 2004. I have been inside both older and newer hallmarks and since you asked, here is my take on them. The composite shell is just that...a shell. It is my understanding that it is not self supporting and has interior framework that everything mounts to. The overhead cabinets are simply thin plastic (they do save a small amount of weight though). That fiberglass roof would be expensive to fix (even more so for the carbon fiber version) if it gets damaged (anybody know how to use a fiberglass repair kit?). Another downside to a fiberglass roof (I have heard from Class A owners) is that they tend to magnify the sounds of raindrops hitting them and we sleep a lot closer to our roofs then they do. There are also several design features that could make the hallmark less then optimal for some owners. First it has a lower interior height (both in the living area and in the shower) which could be an issue for taller owners and second the full length sink cabinet in the bathroom takes up space and restricts leg movement during a shower (neither of these issues are unique to hallmark though as I have seen them in many name brand campers). IMO its lack of a basement places the hallmark squarely in the same category as the Northstar pop-ups and while the hallmark does use better materials then a NS, the NS can be had for appreciably less and is a well thought out camper in its own right. Unless they have changed their pricing recently, a hallmark will also be more expensive then a comparably equipped Outfitter.

I will preface this last part with this, I am well known among Outfitter owners since I am active on RV.net as well as the Outfitter-Owners group and have talked with MANY owners/perspective-owners and while there is in fact bad blood between hallmark/Outfitter (they are brothers), this is the first time that I have heard of anyone mentioning that Bob had something bad to say about hallmark or their campers in the over 3 years I have known him. Unfortunately I honestly can't say the reverse is true (which I feel says something about both companies).

I don't know how often I will get back to this forum (I did turn on the notification flag though) so feel free to email me if you would like more detailed info on anything. You might also want to check out the Truck Camper forum on RV.net as there are several Outfitter owners over there that can share their experiences with you as well.

[Trails2004]

Hello Camper69

I wanted to share some additional information with you, both brands have heated and insulated holding tanks, so there is no advantage. There is a center of gravity and weight advantage that is in favor of the hallmark. Outfitters are taller than any hallmark and weigh on average about 500lbs. MORE due the second floor of the basement and added mass from the taller side walls and taller cabniets. Just because Outfitter puts a few welded sticks of aluminum in their camper, does not mean they don't have wood. In fact, outfitter uses more wood in their construction than hallmark and this can easily be seen by looking at the under bunk storage of the two brands.

The one piece TPO fleece backed rubber roof is a standard in the industry and offered by both companies as standard. The carbon roof that hallmark offers is a state of the art upgrade and should not be punctured by a tree branch or damaged nearly as easily as a rubber roof. You would have to scrape the carbon roof on the side of a rock wall to tear it up, and even then, the roof would still be water tight. It also is easily fixed, as you could just paint the exposed fibers, or you could fill the spot with bondo or fiberglass repair, sand , paint and never know you even had an accident. No patches to fail or leak, like on a rubber roof puncture.

Driving the two units is like night and day I found on RV.net that another Outfitter owner had to up grade from a gas engine truck to a diesel engine truck, just to deal with the extra weight of his Outfitter. Steve drives a diesel truck F-350 himself, and I'm sure he can go 80mph. Just as any small hard side owner can, hallmarks are smaller units, easily handled by a gas engine truck. Hallmark offers , the North/South bunk option, the Tundra fridge option, and the Thetford cassette option. Hallmark offers all of these options, just does not recommend them, because for each advantage these options offer, they also offer more disadvantages, ultimately it is the customers choice. Bath space actually goes in the favor of the hallmark, there is much more space in the bathroom of the hallmark (Take a tape measure and take the square footage). As for the reliability of the unit, I'm sure Outfitter builds a fine piece as they learned many of their techniques at hallmark, but hallmark has again redefined the pop-up camper and has left the others to chase.

While the Outfitter is a bigger camper than the hallmark, I put the Outfitter in the category of a small hard side like a Six Pac or Northern Lite. The height, weight, and center of gravity of the Outfitter take it out of pop-up market and into the small hard-side market. When you realize that the two brands are much more different then they care to let on, you find that fit, finish, technology, reliability, and above all service goes in favor of hallmark. I still like the strength, reliability, and ease of repair on the carbon roof. As for the composite frame not being able to support its self, pictures say a thousand words, and I don't see the Filon that outfitter uses supporting itself.

It is wonderful that Outfitter has taken the high road, sounds like an issue that should be taken up between his family and not the customer. Bottom line though, you want the best product and service for the money. Hallmark's are the most expensive product on the market because of the materials they use and the service they offer. You can buy a Kia or a Lexus, both provide transportation, one company has figured it out a little better.

Best Regards

[Steve_in_29]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trails2004:

I wanted to share some additional information with you, both brands have heated and insulated holding tanks, so there is no advantage. There is a center of gravity and weight advantage that is in favor of the hallmark. Outfitters are taller than any hallmark and weigh on average about 500lbs. MORE due the second floor of the basement and added mass from the taller side walls and taller cabniets. Just because Outfitter puts a few welded sticks of aluminum in their camper, does not mean they don't have wood. In fact, outfitter uses more wood in their construction than hallmark and this can easily be seen by looking at the under bunk storage of the two brands. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heated and insulated? Wasn't it you that posted on RV.net that the black tank of a hallmark was uninsulated and hung underneath the rear of the camper? This can not be compared to a fully enclosed heated basement for keeping things working smoothly in below freezing weather.

Your knowledge of Outfitter construction is out of date. Their campers currently use a one piece fiberglass insert in the cabover (to include the underbed storage) and the portion of lower tub that used to be made of wood is now a reinforced fiberglass (excuse me..composite) piece. About the only wood still used in an Outfitter is in the cabinets.

Yes an Outfitter is going to weigh a little more then a hallmark due to its slightly larger size but 500lbs is a BIG stretch since the materials used to construct 4" of extra sidewall and a extra floor weigh NO WHERE near that much. I could actually lift all of them and I am not exactly the "Incredible Hulk". Now if you are comparing the smallest/lightest hallmark against the largest Outfitter then the 500lb figure might be closer to accurate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The one piece TPO fleece backed rubber roof is a standard in the industry and offered by both companies as standard. The carbon roof that hallmark offers is a state of the art upgrade and should not be punctured by a tree branch or damaged nearly as easily as a rubber roof. You would have to scrape the carbon roof on the side of a rock wall to tear it up, and even then, the roof would still be water tight. It also is easily fixed, as you could just paint the exposed fibers, or you could fill the spot with bondo or fiberglass repair, sand , paint and never know you even had an accident. No patches to fail or leak, like on a rubber roof puncture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While admittedly a relatively rare occurrence, running either roof into a low hanging branch or other obstacle could easily result in damage such as a hole, tear or crack. A rubber roof patch is easily done by anyone and won't fail/leak if done properly (which is a very simple, clean, peal and stick process), while patching a hole/crack in fiberglass is much more complicated and requires items/chemicals/procedures not familiar to most owners (or a trip to the shop). I do agree a fiberglass roof can be made very strong (if it is thick enough) but then this negates any hope of weight savings and the carbon fiber, while stronger is also appreciable more expensive. Both roofs are used widely through out the industry and have their pluses/minuses with neither being inherently better then the other. These are simple facts that no amount of marketing hype can change.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Driving the two units is like night and day I found on RV.net that another Outfitter owner had to up grade from a gas engine truck to a diesel engine truck, just to deal with the extra weight of his Outfitter. Steve drives a diesel truck F-350 himself, and I'm sure he can go 80mph. Just as any small hard side owner can, hallmarks are smaller units, easily handled by a gas engine truck. Hallmark offers , the North/South bunk option, the Tundra fridge option, and the Thetford cassette option. Hallmark offers all of these options, just does not recommend them, because for each advantage these options offer, they also offer more disadvantages, ultimately it is the customers choice.

Bath space actually goes in the favor of the hallmark, there is much more space in the bathroom of the hallmark (Take a tape measure and take the square footage). As for the reliability of the unit, I'm sure Outfitter builds a fine piece as they learned many of their techniques at hallmark, but hallmark has again redefined the pop-up camper and has left the others to chase. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No need to distort the facts, there are plenty of Outfitter owners that carry their camper just fine with a gas engine truck (even Toyotas) just like there are hallmark owners with diesel trucks. So the gas/diesel thing is really a moot point and simply owner preference. I have an F350 since I didn't want to do ANY suspension mods to be able to carry the load (plus tow 7000+lbs of trailer and Bronco) and the price difference between it and an F250 was inconsequential. Even hallmark's larger campers require airbags (a $900 option from hallmark) or other suspension mods to carry them on anything short of a 1 ton as well.

You might want to tell the whole story about the "owner" you reference (a friend of mine) that went from a gas to a diesel. He did so NOT because of a camper issue, it was due to the fact that despite what he was told by the salesman, the Dodge 2500 with the Power-Wagon package he was talked into buying WAS NOT rated for use with ANY truck camper due to the reduced payload from its factory lift springs (which made it very unstable with ANY load). The swap from gas to diesel he did when the dealership bought the truck back from him was entirely due to the low mpg of the Hemi (even unloaded) and the fact that he lives at over 7000' (and camps even higher) and didn't want to continue to deal with the resultant power loss (25% and up) of a gas engine at those elevations.

I never said hallmark didn't have a bathroom that was physically larger (and consequently takes up more of the limited space in the camper), I was referring to "usable space" and simply said the full length cabinet intrudes on a bathers legroom and makes for a more cramped shower experience. The area taken up by the extra-bathroom-space in a hallmark is occupied by a closet (or other storage options) in the Outfitter.

Interesting that you state hallmark will build a N/S cabover since they have dropped it from their options list and the OWNER of the company is currently telling prospective customers that mention its availability from Outfitter (as related to me by just such a customer) that hallmark has dropped this option due to safety concerns. This customer was told that 1)there were issues with the extended cabover's structural integrity in a pop-up, 2)that there was NO WAY to make these stand up in the long run and 3)that Outfitter is having big problems with this. This same prospective buyer was then referred to an Outfitter owner's website that supposedly backed up hallmark's claim by showing a crack in the underside of an Outfitter's cabover (that he was led to believe showed a structural failure). That site is real but out of date and even the camper's owner is satisfied that the crack has in fact been proven to simply be a defect in the non-structural filon cover in that area that has NO affect on the structural integrity. The owner is so unconcerned that he hasn't even taken Outfitter up on their offer to repair the area for free and continues to use his camper to this day. This also appears to have been a one-of situation with no other owners reporting problems. So it is strange that hallmark continues to use this as a sales(?) tactic while you claim they will build one if the customer wants (apparently it isn't a safety issue if the customer wants to spend the money). Regardless of that, the construction of Outfitters in that area was updated some time ago so that what used to be a simple unsupported, cosmetic cover, has now been changed to a much more robust piece. As for the other "non-listed" options maybe hallmark should update their site to reflect their availability then and please feel free to elaborate on your "more disadvantages" comment.

The "learned from hallmark" comment is also misleading, since both BROTHERS simply learned from their DAD and after he passed the company on to them it appears that their differing ideas on how to build campers have led to them going their separate ways.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">While the Outfitter is a bigger camper than the hallmark, I put the Outfitter in the category of a small hard side like a Six Pac or Northern Lite. The height, weight, and center of gravity of the Outfitter take it out of pop-up market and into the small hard-side market. When you realize that the two brands are much more different then they care to let on, you find that fit, finish, technology, reliability, and above all service goes in favor of hallmark. I still like the strength, reliability, and ease of repair on the carbon roof.

As for the composite frame not being able to support its self, pictures say a thousand words, and I don't see the Filon that outfitter uses supporting itself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outfitter is hardly in the same category as a small hardside (of any brand). The level of features/amenities and size of holding tanks in an Outfitter would only be found on a MUCH larger/heavier harsdide and an Outfitter achieves this in a MUCH more compact and drivable size (smaller then every so called "small hardside"). None of the larger models from either company are exactly compact. By your logic the 4Wheelcamper is a MUCH better camper then either a hallmark or Outfitter since it is smaller then both. Size/weight are always a trade off in any camper and in truth the slight differences in both, between comparable hallmark/Outfitter campers is really a non-issue.

Filon is simply the outside component of the aluminum-framed, vacuum-bonded walls that Outfitter uses and has always been clearly explained as such. It has never been claimed that it is a structural member. This is in contrast to the claim of hallmark of "composite wall structure made by the same company used by Earthroamer" leading customers to believe it is the same structurally as the ER when in fact, unlike the ER, it is simply a reinforced-fiberglass, exterior covering over a stick framed camper.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is wonderful that Outfitter has taken the high road, sounds like an issue that should be taken up between his family and not the customer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is and if hallmark didn't keep pushing the issue in public forums and with potential customers I'm sure it would have remained a private family issue that was transparent to the customers of either brand. With hallmark's use of fake "owners" and flame/troll tactics on RV.net to push their agenda, what was private has been thrust into the public domain. The downside of hallmark's taking this public has been their loss of potential customers, as even people that were once interested in hallmarks have made the comment on RV.net that they will never deal with them now. Both companies build a nice product and hallmark should have simply sold their campers based on their own merits and left the smear tactics to the politicians.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bottom line though, you want the best product and service for the money.
Hallmark's are the most expensive product on the market because of the materials they use and the service they offer. You can buy a Kia or a Lexus, both provide transportation, one company has figured it out a little better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most expensive does NOT always go hand-in-hand with best. Interesting that you assert the cost premium of the hallmark is due to the materials used in construction, since hallmarks were costing more even when they were simply stick built from wood. Even back in 2004 (WELL before any composites (?) or carbon fiber) when I priced them, a hallmark cost more then an Outfitter.

Sorry for the long post.

[wildcamper]

Steve,

We have been notified of your posts. Hallmark cordially invites you out to our factory for a free weight evaluation to be documented by me and you. We will also teach center of gravity and let you test drive a gas powered ¾ ton with a hallmark Cuchara onboard. We will be happy to take you to C.F. Maier and show you the manufacturing process of our composite frame walls and our state of the art carbon roof. You will be able to see this process happening along side that of Earthroamers. You will then have a better understanding of the information you try and pass on to potenial pop-up owners. It is only a short 6 miles north from your "alma mater"�. I do hope you take us up on our offer, we will even buy you lunch.

[camper69]

It seems that like political affiliates, their are loyalists within the ranks of truck campers. In reviewing all the information and the specs, I am not sure that Hallmark and Outfitter can be considered apples to apples. Assuming that both manufacturers are financially solid, I think both offer a different approach to truck camping. My lean towards Hallmark is based on a lower profile. The Outfitter units sit much higher and as such to me looks more like my hard shell campers of the past. There is nothing wrong with that but when you want a camper that can sit on your truck half the year and still be civil enough to drive to the store for milk, height and center of gravity are important. If you need the ultimate for winter camping with heated floors etc, then driving to the store with your camper takes a back seat. I am not sure there is a right or wrong with either of these campers. Both appear well built but and filled with plenty of creator comforts. Equally, each manufacture has there own brand of archictecture making them similar but utimately unique in there design.

[Steve_in_29]

"Notified of my posts", are the post police active here? Am I being watched? Give me a break!

For the record "wildcamper" is the owner of hallmaks' son, as was recently exposed on RV.net after years of his posting in the guise of "just-an-owner" which was in direct violation of that forums rules. Besides flames and troll like actions his postings also included personal attacks upon myself.

I have already been to Earthroamers' factory and am in fact considering them (among others) for a potential purchase in the future, so I have a pretty good understanding of their construction already. Theirs is a true composite structure which is fully insulated with built-in reinforced mounting points for interior items and requires no interior support framing. While your advertising makes it sound as if your campers are built the same way, it is my understanding that this is not so. AFAIK yours is merely a molded fiberglass exterior that simply surrounds a wooden framework. While this is a step up from a filon clad wooden camper (and a nice unit in its own right) it isn't in the same league as the ER and shouldn't be construed as such.

Am I mistaken? Please feel free to post pics that will correct me if I am wrong. I have been asking for just such pics since this was first mentioned on RV.net the better part of a year ago and have yet to see any. I have always wondered why hallmark's website doesn't already have pics prominently displayed of what would be a revolutionary first in the pop-up TC genre.

While your offer of lunch is tempting (though how cordial the time would be is debatable in light of your previous attacks against me), the $600+ in fuel it would take for the round trip from Southern California makes it a moot point. I also have no real desire to compare my heavily optioned/mod'ed camper, which I have never claimed to be a lightweight (though mine still doesn't even fully engage the stock overloads on my truck when loaded) against a base model hallmark. I have quite a bit of added weight on mine above what MOST buyers (of either brand) get, so it really would be a case of apples-to-oranges and totally worthless as any kind of comparison between the brands.

As I previously posted the whole truck thing is simply a matter of owner preference and not something dictated by which brand of camper is bought. There are owners of both of these brands carrying their campers on everything from a gas engined Toyota Tundra to a 1ton SRW diesel and enjoying it.

[wildcamper]

Hi Steve,

Offer still stands, I'll even split the gas cost with you and still buy you lunch. Oh, and here is a link to the pic's on my web site you were looking for. I'm sure you will learn a lot.

Link:
hallmark composite construction

[wildcamper]

By the way, what do you think Earthroamer screws their cabinets to? About the only difference is that Earthroamer builds a ship in a bottle and we build the bottle around the ship. Anyway, if you come out I will show you the whole process and you will have a better understanding of composite construction. Don't worry about the options you have in your Outfitter, I have all those options and more in a showroom model. You can even see the heated and insulated tanks and all the new fancy skylights that are possible in carbon roof.