New batteries and poor performance

[Mark_K5LXP]

If you don't want to mess with the stock converter (which amounts to a wall wart for the charge portion) you could disconnect the charge line and use an external one that is made for AGM. Anymore, nominal size electronic chargers support flooded, AGM and lithium so one size fits all. That will properly charge your AGM's. The parallax that's there earned the term "battery boiler" for a reason. I will agree with a few posters above that you received some wounded batteries. Even if they end up taking some charge it's almost a sure bet one or both is compromised and both their performance and lifespan will be diminished. Seeing as how you got them from a dealer I would beat feet back there and demand an exchange for two different ones.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Stircrazy1]

Originally Posted by Trvltrash

If camping in low temps, the way I understand it is that you won't get anything out of a lithium battery or it won't charge below 32 degrees so why suggest lithium? I'm learning too, am I wrong ?

you can discharge them to -20C it is just charging you have to have the battery above 0C (32F) one way to work around this is to mount them inside the heated space. mine lives in the bottom section of the closet that is right above the furnace so the ambient temp inside the camper always keeps the battery above 0C. the other way to do it is if the battery is big enough you just charge it from home then use it for the weekend and recharge when you get home, but that's to much work for me and I have solar

[Stircrazy1]

Originally Posted by TT_TR250RDS

I was not aware of the power centers being a cheap item to upgrade. I also don't no how long we will have this truck camper so I was not looking to dump a tremendous amount of money into it. Just be able to use it boondocking for maybe 3 day stents while skilling. So I would only need the power for the heater and a few lights here and there.

However, now you have me curious. I posted some pictures of my current power center. Any suggestions?

not always cheep but not crazy. in your case it isn't as old or as bad as mine was, so you can just do a direct converter section upgrade with a PD4635V this has a jumper in it that can be switched to Li or you can use the charge wizard for normal batteries

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-D.../dp/B003VAVRXA

the second way is to just put a standalone charger and wire it to your existing panel
https://www.batterystuff.com/battery...r-charger.html this is a definite upgrade offering you a few more options and a little higher capacity.

the third way is to replace everything with a new power center. this is probably the most expensive but it depends. and you also have to measure your cut out for your exsisting power center and find one that will fit with out to much modification. I had to cut my opening 1" taller and 1" wider to do mine. https://www.progressivedyn.com/power-centers/

[TimtheToolGy]

Driving an hour each way to return battery is undesirable, to say the least. The 10V battery clearly has a major problem. Even if you can get the voltage up, it has suffered damage. The dealer likely will put a tester on battery and check CCA or CA (not the right way to test capacity but gives a number) and very likely will see that it is well below rating.

Battery may have a bad cell.

I just went through this last week after buying two batteries for truck. The bad one showed 10.7 V and manufactured 2.5 months ago!

The sooner it can be returned the easier, as dealer may feel that you damaged the battery by letting voltage get too low. Taking battery down at c20 (1/20 of Ah in amps) rate to 10.5 volts and then recharging it right away does not hurt battery (how a capacity test is done) but letting it sit for even a short period reduces both capacity and longevity.

You may find that just running the good one produces better result than running both, as the bad battery is dragging down the good.

[TimtheToolGy]

IMO, LFP batteries are not always the best option. They have many potential benefits to LA but LA have some benefits over LFP. If I was only keeping a camper four more years, LA would have been a much better time use and total cost option, even if LA batteries cost a bit more than LFP batteries for just battery.

[TT_TR250RDS]

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

If you don't want to mess with the stock converter (which amounts to a wall wart for the charge portion) you could disconnect the charge line and use an external one that is made for AGM. Anymore, nominal size electronic chargers support flooded, AGM and lithium so one size fits all. That will properly charge your AGM's. The parallax that's there earned the term "battery boiler" for a reason. I will agree with a few posters above that you received some wounded batteries. Even if they end up taking some charge it's almost a sure bet one or both is compromised and both their performance and lifespan will be diminished. Seeing as how you got them from a dealer I would beat feet back there and demand an exchange for two different ones.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

Could you elaborate on the "wall wart and battery boiler" and what could be changed to prevent that?

I think I will most certainly be exchanging them. Just waiting for the dealer to get more of those ones in. They wouldn't even upgrade me to the next tier which they have in stock for free for my troubles.

[TT_TR250RDS]

Originally Posted by TimtheToolGy

Driving an hour each way to return battery is undesirable, to say the least. The 10V battery clearly has a major problem. Even if you can get the voltage up, it has suffered damage. The dealer likely will put a tester on battery and check CCA or CA (not the right way to test capacity but gives a number) and very likely will see that it is well below rating.

Battery may have a bad cell.

I just went through this last week after buying two batteries for truck. The bad one showed 10.7 V and manufactured 2.5 months ago!

The sooner it can be returned the easier, as dealer may feel that you damaged the battery by letting voltage get too low. Taking battery down at c20 (1/20 of Ah in amps) rate to 10.5 volts and then recharging it right away does not hurt battery (how a capacity test is done) but letting it sit for even a short period reduces both capacity and longevity.

You may find that just running the good one produces better result than running both, as the bad battery is dragging down the good.

Yeah I am very annoyed with the entire situation, but from now on I will take my own meter with me and test the batteries on the spot to ensure they at least have proper stored voltage.

These were also manufactured in Dec/24. Least that is what the sticker states. Who knows.

[Stircrazy1]

Originally Posted by TimtheToolGy

IMO, LFP batteries are not always the best option. They have many potential benefits to LA but LA have some benefits over LFP. If I was only keeping a camper four more years, LA would have been a much better time use and total cost option, even if LA batteries cost a bit more than LFP batteries for just battery.

your going to have to elaborate on that. its not a case of them costing a bit more the OP paid over 400 bucks for two batteries, where if used properly one, LiFePO4 battery would cover the same load, so two will give you twice the useable capacity.

the only situation I know where LA batteries are better is if you have to charge them in cold weather and you can mount them inside the heated rv for some reason. Or where people are comparing them against 10 year old InfoMation. yes there can be a little charge to up grade, but with the OP's converter (battery boiler) he is going to kill any battery you put on it if your not carful so upgrading that is beneficial either way.

[TT_TR250RDS]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy1

not always cheep but not crazy. in your case it isn't as old or as bad as mine was, so you can just do a direct converter section upgrade with a PD4635V this has a jumper in it that can be switched to Li or you can use the charge wizard for normal batteries

https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-D.../dp/B003VAVRXA

the second way is to just put a standalone charger and wire it to your existing panel
https://www.batterystuff.com/battery...r-charger.html this is a definite upgrade offering you a few more options and a little higher capacity.

the third way is to replace everything with a new power center. this is probably the most expensive but it depends. and you also have to measure your cut out for your exsisting power center and find one that will fit with out to much modification. I had to cut my opening 1" taller and 1" wider to do mine. https://www.progressivedyn.com/power-centers/

Thanks for the details. I will see how deep in to the weeds I want to get with this. I guess I should have just don't the full conversion for Li, and moved on.

[TT_TR250RDS]

Ok, I put a 24hr charge on the battery that came with 10v. I then took some battery tests. Note, I wasn't sure what to set the tester on as I am unsure if there are Flat AGM or Spiraled.
Either way, I did a few tests on both options (flat/sprialed) with CCA at 400 and it failed with a replace battery result. However, then I tried both options (flat/spiraled) with CA at 400 and got a pass with good battery. Not sure what to make of it all. I also was using a small charger. I got a larger one from a friend and going to put them both on for 24hrs again then do another round of testing after they sit off the charger for at least a half hour.

If anyone wants to suggest some testing procedures I am all ears. Thanks!

[TimtheToolGy]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy1

your going to have to elaborate on that. its not a case of them costing a bit more the OP paid over 400 bucks for two batteries, where if used properly one, LiFePO4 battery would cover the same load, so two will give you twice the useable capacity.

the only situation I know where LA batteries are better is if you have to charge them in cold weather and you can mount them inside the heated rv for some reason. Or where people are comparing them against 10 year old InfoMation. yes there can be a little charge to up grade, but with the OP's converter (battery boiler) he is going to kill any battery you put on it if your not carful so upgrading that is beneficial either way.

LFP would clearly be an upgrade with many positive aspects over LA, especially if he uses generator. I recently went through this on a TT and did not change converter or solar charger. IMO, LFP are not always the best choice.

• LA can be left on smart charger and mostly ignored (LFP when stored should be discharged to 50% and left disconnected, discharging is a hassle/time consuming)
• LA do not need heaters (LFP must have them if charging is needed below 32F)
• LFP batteries with built in heaters will not work with some solar controllers (Zamp included) because when they go into sleep mode the voltage is too low for the solar controller to see and wake up.
---Adding heater is VERY time consuming if done properly. My experience...
Heaters can be $50 to $160 more per battery when included in battery.
• LA does not have BMS (a good and bad thing)
o BMS are likely the highest failure item on LFP.
o LiTime for one refuses to warranty batteries that have “jacks” that most campers have them, and including leveling systems. LiTime says the BMS will fail due to high in-rush current). I have wasted too much time on this issue.
o Running BMS at a higher current due to inverter needs to be avoided as this will strain it. LFP does a good job keeping voltage up but at the sometime is at risk of BMS failure.
• LA do not need fuse within 6” of battery (LFP have very high AIC, about 8-10 x Ah) so really need MRBF fuse at battery for safety reasons. Most upgraders miss this)
• LA work fine on tongue of camper (Heat and cold very much affect LFP life)
• When moving batteries, wiring change, switches and more are often needed (my experience)
• Moving batteries from outside to inside is a loss of important storage.
• LA are available in more places locally, where LFP generally have to be shipped in or pay a ton more so when there are failures it is way more than stopping by the local store and dealing with, especially an unplanned time.
--Companies like LiTime will do everything they can to refuse warranty and it may take month to try to get resolved (in mean time you have not battery, and likely will only get a 20% discount to replace)
• Setting up, moving, … is very time consuming when done properly.
--I remove my batteries when not in use to meet manufactures storage temperatures (go to LiTime for their recommendations). LA I never removed and would not due to the crazy weight.
• There are more issues…

• I can’t speak to concern about his converter charging weaknesses.

[RVfixit]

Originally Posted by TT_TR250RDS

Do you have any suggestions on a decent charger that can bring the batter up to 14.6 v? I was looking at this one...
https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Charg...B3CV4S2Y&psc=1

I have two of the Schumacher chargers; one for home and one for the RV and have been very happy with their performance.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BLLRM8R?tag=highlightreviews-65701-20

[Stircrazy1]

Originally Posted by TT_TR250RDS

Thanks for the details. I will see how deep in to the weeds I want to get with this. I guess I should have just don't the full conversion for Li, and moved on.

ya my parallax converter was way older than yours, for ac it had a reset button and only one circuit, for dc it has the old glass tubes like cars from the 60's had and only 3 circuits. so I went with a complete panel upgrade. seeing the pictures of yours, where you have actual ac breakers and the mini fuses, I would go with option number two and maybe step up to a 45 amp converter unit number 1 will work also. they are both about the same amount of work, number 2 though you have to have the space behind your converter for it to sit, number one replaces part of your existing unit and doesn't require any more space so that would be the deciding factor for me.

[Stircrazy1]

Originally Posted by TimtheToolGy

LFP would clearly be an upgrade with many positive aspects over LA, especially if he uses generator. I recently went through this on a TT and did not change converter or solar charger. IMO, LFP are not always the best choice.

• LA can be left on smart charger and mostly ignored (LFP when stored should be discharged to 50% and left disconnected, discharging is a hassle/time consuming)
• LA do not need heaters (LFP must have them if charging is needed below 32F)
• LFP batteries with built in heaters will not work with some solar controllers (Zamp included) because when they go into sleep mode the voltage is too low for the solar controller to see and wake up.
---Adding heater is VERY time consuming if done properly. My experience...
Heaters can be $50 to $160 more per battery when included in battery.
• LA does not have BMS (a good and bad thing)
o BMS are likely the highest failure item on LFP.
o LiTime for one refuses to warranty batteries that have “jacks” that most campers have them, and including leveling systems. LiTime says the BMS will fail due to high in-rush current). I have wasted too much time on this issue.
o Running BMS at a higher current due to inverter needs to be avoided as this will strain it. LFP does a good job keeping voltage up but at the sometime is at risk of BMS failure.
• LA do not need fuse within 6” of battery (LFP have very high AIC, about 8-10 x Ah) so really need MRBF fuse at battery for safety reasons. Most upgraders miss this)
• LA work fine on tongue of camper (Heat and cold very much affect LFP life)
• When moving batteries, wiring change, switches and more are often needed (my experience)
• Moving batteries from outside to inside is a loss of important storage.
• LA are available in more places locally, where LFP generally have to be shipped in or pay a ton more so when there are failures it is way more than stopping by the local store and dealing with, especially an unplanned time.
--Companies like LiTime will do everything they can to refuse warranty and it may take month to try to get resolved (in mean time you have not battery, and likely will only get a 20% discount to replace)
• Setting up, moving, … is very time consuming when done properly.
--I remove my batteries when not in use to meet manufactures storage temperatures (go to LiTime for their recommendations). LA I never removed and would not due to the crazy weight.
• There are more issues…

• I can’t speak to concern about his converter charging weaknesses.

wow you managed to turn heaters into like 10 points to make it look like there are more issues than they are. I'll address that first.

you don't need a heater, 90% of people that camp won't camp in that kind of weather and if you do and don't have solar you can still use the battery while it is below freezing, just cant charge. so for example right now my battery is in a outside compartment, and subject to the elements but it is 10x my daily usage for capacity so I can camp 10 days at -20C (-4F) with out worrying about anything I just shut my solar breaker off. then when I get home I charge it up for a few hours then unplug it. there is the other senario where if you are running the furnace the curent being use may be enough to keep the battery above freezing for its internal temp then you could charge. I have a couple buddies who just put there batteries in modifiex colaman extream coolers on their tounge and the usage of the battery is enough to keep the temp of the battery warm enough for charging. if it is sevely cold they just throw a few heat packs in there for an hour then start charging. plenty of ways around it

if you do add a heated battery thats fine, you can say they don't work because they are not compatible with zamp, they seam to work fine with every other system. nothing is compatable with zamp, thats the worst system they could have put in a rv and it I had it I would throw the controler and panels in the garbage and put normal stuff in there.

LS should have heaters they lose up to 50% of their capacity at -20C so your 100AH battery with 50% usable becomes a 25 to 35 usable ah battery so a heater can help with this. also unless they are kept fully charged there is a risk of freezing during the winter if you live somewhere that has real winters.

you split BMS up to a few different issues also. a BMS is nothing more than a safty device. people thing it does a lot more than it is. as long as you are staying with in the ratings for it then it won't normaly fail and yes it is the highest failure rate because the cells generaly don't fail they wear out over decades, unless you abuse them) so if you say 2 failues in 10000 BMS then yes that is high compared to the other componants but put it into context its the only part that can realy fail after the fact. as for your jacks, I know several people that are running them on LFP batteries what Litimes says is irelivant thats their policy. if you had anough batteries to split that load up a little more you wouldn't have had an issue. the biggest problem with BMS is the people buying the batteies not doing there home work and sizing thengs properly. just because it says 100amps continious should you size it to run at 100amps? not things should be sized to run at 50% of there max rated load for longjevity. so I know my converter will draw up to 170amps if I run it full out but realisticly the largest draw I have is going to take up about 100amps so I built my battery with a BMS of 200A continious discharge. in my 5th wheel I have a larger inverter than can draw up to 250 manybe a bit higher but I have 3 batteries in there each with 200amp bms so they will run 30% capacity at full load. and I do run my electric jack leveling system in my 5th wheel with no issues

now lets take about the definat advanatages. 1/4 the weight for the same AH, 1/3rd the size I would argue my 304AH battery is less than 1/6th the size of comparable LA 6V batteries and 1/12th the weight. it replaced two 6V in my truck camper droped my weight by 120lbs and when it is put into the closet in a few weeks it will free up the whole outside compartment where my 6V bateries were while only takeing up the botom corner ( 10" tall by 9" wide and 13" long , and thats leave air flow space) of the closet that I am also building a shelving system into. for me this move shortens my dc cable by 2 to 3 feet. and yes you should have a fuse. but even LA have a saftey device which is suposed to be located with in 12" of the battery. in rv's they use a auto reset breaker.

as for storage my charger is programable so I put it in to a storage profile where it only charges to 70% then shuts off and won't charge again till the battery drops to 30% and if I wanted to take it inside, big deal its 48lbs for almost 90lbs like a single 6V , but mine lives in the camper, I just shut off my solar the last day of camping and let it drop below 90% then shut it off when I get home in the winter. int he summer I use my storage profile between trips and just charge to 100% the day before we leave.

so much more I could write but I have to go to work.