Dump 💩 Station Reservations ?

[rtaggio]

Arrived at Gros Ventre campground Grand Teton NP and were told we need to "reserve" our dump station space as the NPS only allows 43 users a day ?

Certainly there is a big difference between a class B and big class A tank capacities, but that doesn’t seem to factor in.

This is a NPS mandate as the septic system is old and in need of rehabilitation. Seems insane to me that there is not a better solution then restricting when people can dump tanks. It also may make some do things they shouldn't.

The campground staff (volunteers I assume) handled the situation and explanation very well and should be commended. They also weren’t happy being the “poop police” and having to put a lock on the dump each night.

I have express my dissatisfaction to the NPS in a letter.

[Old-Biscuit]

Did you provide a 'solution' in your letter?

Seems until the septic system is rebuilt/upgraded they are doing the best they can with the simplest solution
Limiting the amount of usage per day so septic system can keep up and providing a reservation system so folks know when it's their turn.

Overload a septic system and no one gets to use it, maybe for months then NO DUMPING rules would apply.

[Steverino]

It might be (somewhat) more productive to write to your congresscritters asking for funds to be appropriated to allow the septic system to be upgraded.

Tells them what is important to their constituents, and might help get it assigned a higher priority. I'm sure it will be a not-insignificant investment...

[inthepines]

Originally Posted by Steverino

It might be (somewhat) more productive to write to your congresscritters asking for funds to be appropriated to allow the septic system to be upgraded.

Tells them what is important to their constituents, and might help get it assigned a higher priority. I'm sure it will be a not-insignificant investment...

Considering how the EPA has been going after leach field systems and forcing owners to update to a mini waste water treatment center, it will cost at least 30k. Probably more since it needs to handle way more waste than a standard household of 4.
I'd guess they were granted a waiver to allow them to dump 2k gallons a day, which shouldn't be too much stress on a failing system but hard to say exactly as an armchair analysis. Being it's a national park, you would think the feds would lead by example. hahaha

[Bigceasar]

Originally Posted by inthepines

Considering how the EPA has been going after leach field systems and forcing owners to update to a mini waste water treatment center, it will cost at least 30k. Probably more since it needs to handle way more waste than a standard household of 4.
I'd guess they were granted a waiver to allow them to dump 2k gallons a day, which shouldn't be too much stress on a failing system but hard to say exactly as an armchair analysis. Being it's a national park, you would think the feds would lead by example. hahaha

Try 10 to 100 times that $30,000. RV park septic systems are notoriously expensive and problematic. First, they operate only seasonally resulting in much less bacterial activity to break down waste. Many a potential new park has been scuttled due to the inability to guarantee a treatment plant’s continued efficient operation ( that’s from first hand experience). Second, RV park septic systems handle an unfavorable mixture of liquid to solid waste again compromising efficiency.
To expect the park service to prioritize upgrading a functioning septic system over a multitude of other underfunded projects would appear to me to be extremely unlikely. Plus there is the real political conundrum, who do you complain to? Your state representative or senator couldn’t care less about championing a public works project in Wyoming and Wyoming senators and representatives don’t give a rat’s rear end about the wants and desires of a voter from California or Michigan. To me it sure appears that any effort will be emptying your personal gray tank into the wind.

[twogypsies]

Originally Posted by rtaggio

This is a NPS mandate as the septic system is old and in need of rehabilitation. Seems insane to me that there is not a better solution then restricting when people can dump tanks. It also may make some do things they shouldn't.

The campground staff (volunteers I assume) handled the situation and explanation very well and should be commended. They also weren’t happy being the “poop police” and having to put a lock on the dump each night.

I have express my dissatisfaction to the NPS in a letter.

The national parks are sorely underfunded. They will get the septic upgraded but it certainly can't be done ASAP. Your letter to the NPS will do nothing. You need to go beyond that.

Conscientious campers wouldn't "do things that they shouldn't".

As volunteers we encountered the same issue with a state park. Many would come in from their boondocking adventure outside the park and on Sundays there would be a line to dump. It didn't take long for the septic system to become overwhelmed. Yes, we had to keep a lock on it and only campers in the park were allowed to use it until funds were available to replace it.

[Persistent]

I agree. Complaining to the Park System is going to have minimal effect. Complaining to your Congress Person and Senator will be marginally more successful.

Of course it is almost pointless to complain to a Congress Person or Senator from a different state or district. The first thing and aid asks when they take a call is where you live.

Ask your Congress person and Senator and do it while they are campaigning for re-election. Try to get a promise. Good luck if you are not a contributor! A $100 check along with the request will get better attention.

An alternative is to donate the $100 to a "Friend of the Park" organization along with a request to get the dump station fixed. This may get more targeted action.

[Isaac-1]

As I see it this is another symptom of the opposing factions at play when it comes to managing national parks, the two big ones are the faction that wants to increase tourism to the parks, and the faction that wants to ban humans from the parks.

[twinboat]

A fix is to install a large sewage holding tank and contract a sewage disposal service to empty it for transport to a treatment facality.

[inthepines]

Originally Posted by Bigceasar

Try 10 to 100 times that $30,000. RV park septic systems are notoriously expensive and problematic. First, they operate only seasonally resulting in much less bacterial activity to break down waste. Many a potential new park has been scuttled due to the inability to guarantee a treatment plant’s continued efficient operation ( that’s from first hand experience). Second, RV park septic systems handle an unfavorable mixture of liquid to solid waste again compromising efficiency.
To expect the park service to prioritize upgrading a functioning septic system over a multitude of other underfunded projects would appear to me to be extremely unlikely. Plus there is the real political conundrum, who do you complain to? Your state representative or senator couldn’t care less about championing a public works project in Wyoming and Wyoming senators and representatives don’t give a rat’s rear end about the wants and desires of a voter from California or Michigan. To me it sure appears that any effort will be emptying your personal gray tank into the wind.

I agree.


I wasn't going to guesstimate what it would cost a park to update, I'm just giving a general idea on what it costs for the average house.
I know it would be a lot more involved than a house.

My tanks are 500 gallons each x 5 + I couldn't guess the size of tanks a popular park would need. way more than that.

There is no doubt it would be 6 digits and above. Not to mention ongoing costs, such as permit, pumping, chemicals(UV)/electric.
Well if they want to stay open, they are going to need to prioritize something, the EPA isn't known for being understanding. Would be interesting to see NPS and EPA going at it hah

[astrnmrtom]

Another example of the changing pressure on campgrounds designed and built in a different era. Look at the increase in RV size, and numbers in the past 30 years, and bigger RVs have bigger holding tanks. Any temporary solution would certainly depend on where the park is, and what available recourses are available in the area. You can't magically increase a septic systems capacity, so you'd be forced to use a pumping and disposal service, and what do you do when the local service doesn't have the capacity or in some cases doesn't exist. Doesn't matter if the customer thinks a particular management technique of an overloaded system isn't fair.

The second issue is tighter environmental laws. It's not just a matter of dropping in larger tanks and expanding the drain fields. Costs have grown exponentially. We stopped at a newer resort and one of the requirements for them to build the park was to install their own mini waste water treatment plant.

What Bigceasar said is right on the nose. In a variation of one of my laws of public institutions: "There is no glory in a well maintained septic system." Septic system are invisible, and no one thinks about them until they stop working, then its a crisis.

[GypsyR]

I have to admit I would have been thrown more than a bit myself. I appreciate you guys explaining the likely reasoning behind the situation. If I run into then I'll know.

[hemifoot]

Originally Posted by twinboat

A fix is to install a large sewage holding tank and contract a sewage disposal service to empty it for transport to a treatment facality.

this.very simple solution.i'm trying to wrap my head around a reservation system to start with.how would that even work? we all know how only 1 person can jam up the whole queue.

[rtaggio]

Originally Posted by twinboat

A fix is to install a large sewage holding tank and contract a sewage disposal service to empty it for transport to a treatment facality.

Having a pump out truck was exactly what I suggested in my letter. Seemed like a pretty simple fix to me. If cost is/was an issue, charge a separate fee to use the dump, but telling people they can't use it is just plain wrong.

Considering the nightly rate of $42 a night for a dry camping site, I just find it inexcusable !