National Parks - What is the solution to so much LOVE

[Busskipper]

National Parks

Mission - The mission of the National Park Service is to preserve unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park system for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations.

Funding - The National Park Service is primarily funded by Congress through both the annual appropriations cycle as well as some mandatory funds. The National Park System also receives funding through park entrance and user fees, as well as private philanthropy.

Maintaining the Parks - Located in the Department of the Interior, the National Park Service (NPS) is responsible for overseeing, maintaining and preserving the National Park System—which comprises 391 areas covering more than 84 million acres in every state (except Delaware).

Deferred Maintenance - Is repairs to infrastructure and assets that get delayed and backlogged because of budget limitations and lack of funding. Currently this is in the neighborhood of 18 Billion Dollars.

Issue – Money – Visitor volume – Traffic – Services, Food, Locations to stay, Hotels, RV Parks.

Solutions – More Money – Better/More Roads, More Parking – New Hotels – New/More RV Parks.

Controversial Solutions – limit access to parks – Shuttle Buses - raise fees – Defer Maintenance.

In researching this I found this;

While national parks charge fees, these fees are not nearly enough to fund the national park system, which is why the NPS depends so heavily on Congress’ budget appropriations.

Another important source of funding for national parks is the federal Land and Water Conservation Fund. Congress created the Land and Water Conservation Fund in 1965. The idea was to take money from the extractive industries of offshore oil and gas and put that money into the conservation of land and water via public parks.

The fund gets $900 million in royalties per year, but a lot of that money is siphoned to other, non-park spending. Because the NPS isn’t getting the full $900 million from year to year, funding is unpredictable. Since 1965, Congress diverted over $20 billion in program revenue to other purposes.

The fund is supposed to provide the money for the acquisition of new lands for national parks, national wildlife refuges, national forests and trail systems. It was also intended to provide 50-50 matching grants to help state and local governments preserve park land in partnership with the NPS.

In another post - RMNP Reservations - much of this is in the discussion.

This is a really Big Issue - and it deserves a lot of Discussion, what do you think, How would you make the Parks Better?

Hoping this leads to some constructive discussion.

[HopsBrewster]

There are a lot of advertisements on all the different media and all over the world to get people to visit the US NPs. More entrance fees paid, more $ for upkeep, supposedly. Free entry days, free visits for 4th & 5th graders and their families, etc. And visitation reaches record levels, to the point that some parks now require reservations to get in. Yet park budgets get slashed, repair and upgrades keep getting put off. It has a lot to do with Congress, Dept of Interior, the NPS, and politics. They just don't see the overcrowding, and they don't understand that is what causes wear and tear.
There are volunteer orgs and lots of donated dollars going into these parks, too. But it still isn't enough.
The whole world is very aware of our NP system. Why do they need to increase visitation to even greater records? The overcrowding simply leads to a very unpleasant visit, IMO, and increased wear and tear. And the record number of visits don't turn into better maintenance. I believe that a tipping point was reached a long time ago wherein the large number of visitors is bad for the parks.
so why not STOP promoting them so hard?

[Busskipper]

Originally Posted by HopsBrewster

There are a lot of advertisements on all the different media and all over the world to get people to visit the US NPs. More entrance fees paid, more $ for upkeep, supposedly. Free entry days, free visits for 4th & 5th graders and their families, etc. And visitation reaches record levels, to the point that some parks now require reservations to get in. Yet park budgets get slashed, repair and upgrades keep getting put off. It has a lot to do with Congress, Dept of Interior, the NPS, and politics. They just don't see the overcrowding, and they don't understand that is what causes wear and tear.
There are volunteer orgs and lots of donated dollars going into these parks, too. But it still isn't enough.
The whole world is very aware of our NP system. Why do they need to increase visitation to even greater records? The overcrowding simply leads to a very unpleasant visit, IMO, and increased wear and tear. And the record number of visits don't turn into better maintenance. I believe that a tipping point was reached a long time ago wherein the large number of visitors is bad for the parks.
so why not STOP promoting them so hard?

So Your solution would be - STOP promoting them so hard. - Makes sense if you are already filled then maybe either build more to Handle more of Promote them less. That's generally the way smart business is run.

[Twomed]

If you are heading out this summer check ahead for BIG changes in NPS.

Zion has required shuttle tix for a while now. Other parks are jumping on that theme. We came West early this year and were surprised.

Glacier...Driving in the park from either end requires an entry ticket unless you have reservations in the park.

Mesa Verde...ticketed Ranger programs to tour most all of the Pueblos.

I'm sure there are probably others as well. Tix are available on recreation.gov AND will require some planning for dates/times. They are only good for the purchaser...with ID.

Every place is crowded early...just crazy, no one working, all out in their new rv's.

Good Luck

[twogypsies]

Excellent statements so far. Bottom line.... our parks are getting loved 'to death'.

Many see our national parks as resorts, amusement parks. They don't care about preservation. They expect modern conveniences. The parks don't receive enough money from the national budget to keep these parks in good condition. Entry fees help and the money stays in the park itself. Volunteers help greatly and save many park ranger hours.

But it's still not enough. Park visitation is so high that something needs to be done to limit how many can safely come into the parks and get a good experience when visiting. Traffic is horrendous along with parking. Then people complain. What's the park to do? Create more parking lots on another piece of land that's supposed to be preserved? The more parking lots the more people driving the roads and the more complaints. It's a vicious circle.

Zion has solved the crowding issue by requiring all visitors use the tram in order to go to the canyon's end. No cars are allowed. This has helped greatly and creates a better, safer experience for those in the canyon. In the future I see more parks going this route or similar ideas.

People are used to getting reservations for many things and for planning ahead. The parks are leaning in that direction, also.

[Busskipper]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

Excellent statements so far. Bottom line.... our parks are getting loved 'to death'.

Many see our national parks as resorts, amusement parks. They don't care about preservation. They expect modern conveniences. The parks don't receive enough money from the national budget to keep these parks in good condition. Entry fees help and the money stays in the park itself. Volunteers help greatly and save many park ranger hours.

While they may not be Disneyworld they are Quite the Wonders - If more was made available to the Owners of the Park, the Visitors to the park then it just might be easier to preserve the Natural Wonders that we cherish, It is a two way street on this I feel.

But it's still not enough. Park visitation is so high that something needs to be done to limit how many can safely come into the parks and get a good experience when visiting. Traffic is horrendous along with parking. Then people complain. What's the park to do? Create more parking lots on another piece of land that's supposed to be preserved? The more parking lots the more people driving the roads and the more complaints. It's a vicious circle.

So why can't we figure out how to get more people into the parks - Most are pretty Big and not every acre of Dirt is critical for preservation - If more people were able to stay in the park it would certainly Help with traffic - if we had more parking spaces in the parking lots - people would not park on the road making traffic worse! Just a thought on making it Available to All the people it is meant to be Available to enjoy!

Zion has solved the crowding issue by requiring all visitors use the tram in order to go to the canyon's end. No cars are allowed. This has helped greatly and creates a better, safer experience for those in the canyon. In the future I see more parks going this route or similar ideas.

It has been my understanding that much of the traffic in Zion is/are day busses from Nevada - and it is a Zoo - closed to many of the people who should be allowed to enjoy it. JMHO

People are used to getting reservations for many things and for planning ahead. The parks are leaning in that direction, also.

Not everyone, some of us are still rolling with No Reservations.

What would you say to Maybe asking Disney for a little help - with suggestions on how to make it possible to manage the resource better - Possibly making reservations for a week or longer not just the day or Hour you need to get in. I think a longer window would work much Better especially for those of us who are not into reservations.

Possibly making the Golden Passports into ticket books with just so many visits a month/year - something like that work?

As for Zion - I personally am not a trolley/bus type of person so we visit it in the Off season - no crowds Cool Weather just Perfect.

Think we can make it work we just need to try some new ideas,

JMHO

[rfg9585]

I just wish someone would come up with a solution, "out of the box", that would not control us and also not charge us more than we already pay. Not sure about all but I think I have paid enough and certainly don't like to be controlled.

No solutions from me but I would like to see less development in the parks, ie, keep even more natural than what I see today. Too many BIG fancy buildings that are overbuilt for nothing more than an info center, etc. If you observe the items parks have spent money on you might notice they have nothing to do with upkeep, eg, fancy trucks, mowers, cars, facilities, and the list goes on and on. Need to get back to the very basic.

Concepts from Disney might be a start, but have you been to Disney lately. Hours long lines.... ranted enough. Later....

[ransil]

Get chick fil A involved they can move some cars .

[DRM901]

Revenue:
I don't think we pay enough. Compare the fees at a state or federal park against private parks. At least 200-300% less, and that is just camping fees.

I think Congress and state legislatures should give the parks what they previously committed to doing: not take revenue from the parks to fund other stuff. I'm against greater appropriations. That would mean I want everyone to help pay for my camping/visits.

I'm against increasing advertising revenue. That is the quick, easy money solution, but completely against the intent of the parks.

Reservation cancelations and no shows need to have significant money impact to discourage this major issue. I've been at parks that are physically empty, but fully booked online. Just follow the rules hotels use. We all know those rules, so not something new.

Expenses:
Rangers need to be paid better. Yes, they have a great job, but the pay is just awful.

Expand the volunteer numbers. Some parks really limit this great resource.

I think the park service should issue bonds to catch up on decades of underfunded maintenence. This way you can ensure a line item fee must go to service the debt.

I would partner with commercial construction companies to get the maintenence done, and get the state/ federal oversight out of the way. I've been told, and seen first hand, how government work costs at least 300% more because of how many hours they have to sit in meetings. As we used to say in business, all meetings are non-productive hours.

Open the park stores back up. (Probably, private partnership. ) Do activities to get traffic. We used to rent boats, movie night on the beach, etc. I think every night had something going on. It was great for store sales of popcorn, ice cream, candy.

Volume:
All private parks control number of admissions. Must work.

I don't like shuttles, but road/parking lot traffic in some parks is crazy.

We should NOT increase the number of parks, as the current administration as proposed, until we solve the funding issue. More parks + same funding level = more neglect.

[Busskipper]

Originally Posted by rfg9585

I just wish someone would come up with a solution, "out of the box", that would not control us and also not charge us more than we already pay. Not sure about all but I think I have paid enough and certainly don't like to be controlled.

IMHO, this has been an issue that has faced the National Parks forever, so an " Out of the Box" solution is not likely readily available - it appears that Congress tried to solved the issue with the Royalties of $900,000,000.00 annually, but then did not honor the commitment, as they then took that money and used it on "other Projects" . Over the years they Owe the National Parks near $20 - BILLION $ Dollars - which would more than cover the the cost of all the Deferred Maintenance that are needed to bring the parks up to date.

No solutions from me but I would like to see less development in the parks, ie, keep even more natural than what I see today. Too many BIG fancy buildings that are overbuilt for nothing more than an info center, etc. If you observe the items parks have spent money on you might notice they have nothing to do with upkeep, eg, fancy trucks, mowers, cars, facilities, and the list goes on and on. Need to get back to the very basic.

Less development in the Park would likely mean more crowded parks - JMHO. I do agree that the Priorities seem to have been lost - The Goals need to Focus on the Mission of the National Parks - "to preserve unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park system for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations."Lot of the Work done and Money spent is not visible to the daily visitor, think if you have been to the National Parks you can honestly say that you would be embarrassed by anything other than the Lack of Parking and crowded roads. Also if you have followed the history the parks were originally not that accessible to everyone - as they now are. so they are a National Treasure that are shared by all.

Concepts from Disney might be a start, but have you been to Disney lately. Hours long lines.... ranted enough. Later....

Disney - Chic-fil-A - Six Flags - along with some of the State Park systems could team up to come up with a pilot program or two that might alleviate some of the issues - But first the Issues need to be Identified and Prioritized, Then agreed upon as the Goal. Once that happens we could prioritize where and what the Money is focused on.

This is a Big job as the Mission of the parks is varied to so many of us - just depends on where you sit in this discussion, as there is a big difference between the RV'er (irv2) definition and the Sierra Club - trust me we are worlds apart on this.

Thanks for your contribution on this,

[Trapper2022]

Simple solution would be to ban people younger than say 50 from going to parks. Only the older or elite should be allowed in.

Now to get serious. We need to allocate more money to the national park system. Government wants trillions to spend as they like but I have heard little about taking care of our aging park system. It is sad to see the deterioration that has occurred over my lifetime. At the current rate our grandkids won’t have much to see. I can only hope the national parks get the resources that they need and should have gotten years ago. Hope future generations get to enjoy the parks as much as I have. Safe travels

Enjoy the journey

[Busskipper]

Originally Posted by DRM901

Revenue:
I don't think we pay enough. Compare the fees at a state or federal park against private parks. At least 200-300% less, and that is just camping fees.

Simple solution for those who think we should pay More - Simple Pay More - many of us have paid taxes that have been substantial over the years and many do not need or have the ability to pay more, so there are many ways to contribute more if you want to, Just Do It.

I think Congress and state legislatures should give the parks what they previously committed to doing: not take revenue from the parks to fund other stuff. I'm against greater appropriations. That would mean I want everyone to help pay for my camping/visits.

If the parks Had the Moneys that congress had Originally Committed then likely there would not be an issue with finances and Deferred Maintenance - These are a National Treasure and are owed by all Americans so there needs to be "Adequate Appropriations" While I too enjoy the parks as Camping and RV'ing destinations that is not the only Mission, although it is a critical one, IMHO, so the care and Maintenance is appropriately part of the total Budget.

I'm against increasing advertising revenue. That is the quick, easy money solution, but completely against the intent of the parks.

Not sure you completely comprehend the Budget process - Revenue goes up with the Number of Visitors in the park - so while it seems to negatively affect the Parks it actually is important to the Overall budget of the Parks, I'd be willing to Guess that the dolars spent on advertising have a direct relationship to the numbers of New Visitor coming to the Park and that this is discussed during the Budget process of each Park. Sort of a Catch 22.

Reservation cancelations and no shows need to have significant money impact to discourage this major issue. I've been at parks that are physically empty, but fully booked online. Just follow the rules hotels use. We all know those rules, so not something new.

Not sure I have been to the Parks You have visited - the only time I have visited a park that is not full, is out of Season, Also if you cancel you pay, (that is my experience) and generally if you arrive early you can catch one of those Cancellations at most of the parks, not always but Often.

Expenses:
Rangers need to be paid better. Yes, they have a great job, but the pay is just awful.

The only way to pay them more is to Appropriate more Money - this is a hard cost - It would be nice to offer say a college Credit for a semester (Say the Summer) for college credit - many young health people helping would be Awesome! Would be similar to a semester abroad.

Expand the volunteer numbers. Some parks really limit this great resource.

The Volunteers require more resources - Places to Live and shop - so this is a trade off of some of the hard costs, but require an investment in the Infrastructure needed to have them.

I think the park service should issue bonds to catch up on decades of underfunded maintenance. This way you can ensure a line item fee must go to service the debt.

It appears that we no longer recognize debt in the currant budget process, sorry just couldn't past it up . The Park Sytem is part of the National Budget so it is already associated with significant debt.

I would partner with commercial construction companies to get the maintenance done, and get the state/ federal oversight out of the way. I've been told, and seen first hand, how government work costs at least 300% more because of how many hours they have to sit in meetings. As we used to say in business, all meetings are non-productive hours.

Not sure where this info comes from as I have sat in some of those meetings and used to bid/do Government work - they are very completive. The reason there are so many regulations are because they are working on a National Treasure, they require some extra care. If they pay for it they need to control it, doubt you would write a check for work you did not approve of. As for meetings being Non Productive - I'd much rather spend an hour or two in a meeting getting things straight than having a crew have to stop for hours (@$5,000.00 + Per Hour) waiting for a decision, when I was in meetings we solved problems, we did not sit there to drink Coffee!

Open the park stores back up. (Probably, private partnership. ) Do activities to get traffic. We used to rent boats, movie night on the beach, etc. I think every night had something going on. It was great for store sales of popcorn, ice cream, candy.

All of these are private - they were closed last year do to Covid - so I love the idea of perhaps having the park give more options on things to do and when to do them along with many proposed daily routings so as to see and do more in the days you have in the parks.

Volume:
All private parks control number of admissions. Must work.

This would be what I would consider the LAST RESORT option as it really does not make many happy.

I don't like shuttles, but road/parking lot traffic in some parks is crazy.

In the parks shuttles are used they - IMHO - severely restrict the access to the parks, and while they appear to solve the problem - I'm not sure they really do. Thinking there may be other options and possible solutions, they just need to be discovered/discussed.

We should NOT increase the number of parks, as the current administration as proposed, until we solve the funding issue. More parks + same funding level = more neglect.

Agree , but it seems as if every President - Lately - has created a new park - Latest In West Virginia - The New River Gorge in West Virginia - is an example 2020.

Excellent Post

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions - hopefully more will join with the thoughts and issues you have presented IMHO this is a discussion all of us should spend time and effort to resolve.

[Busskipper]

Originally Posted by trapper2020

Simple solution would be to ban people younger than say 50 from going to parks. Only the older or elite should be allowed in.

:

Now to get serious. We need to allocate more money to the national park system. Government wants trillions to spend as they like but I have heard little about taking care of our aging park system. It is sad to see the deterioration that has occurred over my lifetime. At the current rate our grandkids won’t have much to see. I can only hope the national parks get the resources that they need and should have gotten years ago. Hope future generations get to enjoy the parks as much as I have. Safe travels

Simple solution to the Deferred Maintenance is to allocate the Monies already dedicated.: thumb
:

More money allocated/dedicated is what is Needed. Agreed!

It needs to be made a priority, and I too hope our Kids and Grandkids are able to enjoy the parks.


Enjoy the journey

Thanks for the contribution,

[Grant Lasson]

I'd be happy to pay more if the $$$ were sure to be spent on maintaining, upgrading, and buying more parks. The story linked below shows the problem. Utah is a very popular state with huge visitation. It only gets allocated $7+ million for park maintenance despite all the fees and royalties paid.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/4/...g-not-for-utah

More money without more transparency and accountability = more failure.