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05-25-2024, 09:42 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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5th wheel lost a whole wheel assembly
2010/2011 Keystone Cougar 246RL. Ford F-350 Lariat tow vehicle.
Recently we took a short trip with the trailer. Prior to going I did a quick check of wheels – raised each side, made sure they rolled easily and quietly, and that there was no abnormal play in the wheels.
They were lubed and adjusted last fall, and we only put a couple thousand miles on the trailer since service – even with the trip this spring, less than 2500 miles, so far fewer than a normal year and far fewer than between normal re-greasing the bearings.
On the way home we lost the driver side rear wheel. Tire, wheel, brake assembly – everything GONE. Axle spindle sticking out. There was grease on the spindle, so it doesn’t look like a lubrication failure.
Fortunately, we were only a few blocks from home when we became aware of the problem, so we gently got the trailer home and into the driveway.
The wheel did some damage as it exited, so we’ll be having repairs done.
One concern (other than the fact that this trailer has now done this twice) is that the TPMS NEVER alarmed or indicated that the wheel was gone. After at LEAST 20 minutes (time to notice, check it, and get the trailer home), the TPMS was STILL saying the left rear wheel (and all the others) STILL had 72 PSI in it.
I EXPECTED the tpms would quickly show ZERO for pressure, and hopefully sound an alarm like it does when the tire pressure starts going down. It never did until MUCH later.
The TPMS is an older TST 507 with the monochrome display, but it’s worked fine for over 15 years. I just wasn’t aware that if a sensor disappears, it doesn’t tell you. Is there a different/better TPMS for the truck and trailer that would at least let me know we had a serious problem like a wheel coming off? I saw some from TireMinder, and a few others, but I’d like something reliable and trustworthy that will actually let me know when there’s a major problem like this.
This is the SECOND time this has happened. A number of years ago it happened while out west and I limped into Kingman (Good Sam road service couldn't find anybody, anywhere to get the trailer to a shop) on 3 wheels, got it to a shop and got the axle replaced with the same one as the original (4400 lb Dexter).
The axles are 4400 pound units from Dexter with 15”, 6 lug wheels.
The trailer label says:
GVWR 4082KG (9000 lb)
GAWR (each axle) 1996KG (4400 lb)
Tires ST225/75R/15D tire pressure 65 psi.
Cargo capacity 884KG (1945lb) calculated with the fresh water tanks FULL (Cold 132 KG, hot 23KG) and waste water empty.
At the time of the failure, the fresh water was almost empty, black and gray tanks all empty. Even with 60 pounds of propane, we don’t have anywhere near 1945 pounds of contents.
Based on the tag, everything we have matches what the trailer says – 4400 lb axles, 225/15D tires, empty waste tanks.
Since all the bearings were greased and things adjusted fewer than 3000 miles and 7 months ago, any thoughts on how to avoid this in the future? And no, I'm NOT supposed to buy a new 5th wheel OR get a motorhome and a Jeep to tow behind it. How do I keep THIS thing from having this kind of catastrophic failure?
__________________
2011 Cougar High Country 246RL towed by a 2016 Ford F-350 Crew Cab.
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05-25-2024, 10:20 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Commercial Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: behind the steering wheel
Posts: 2,907
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did the spindle nut just come off, or did the threads break off of the spindle? when you retrieved the damaged wheel and parts, was the cotter ket still in the spindle cap?
or did the cotter key not get reinstalled when the axle bearings were last serviced.
there has to be a reason wheels keeps coming off.
sorry, this is not criticism, blaming, or finger pointing. im just interested in preventing it from happening again.
i am just curious at why the wheel comes off, and would want to get to the reason it came off. the tpms is important too, but loss of the wheel could be deadly.
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05-25-2024, 10:44 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Thornville, Ohio
Posts: 4,091
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As azpete asked did it come off the spindle, or did the spindle break? You don't hear of people losing the wheel and hub very often.
__________________
Art & Joyce
Thornville, OH
Kia Soul pushing a 36' DP Endeavor
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05-25-2024, 10:55 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2023
Posts: 785
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Agree with others, has to be a reason. Did you do the service work yourself, or trust someone else to complete the bearing service?
I also see a rather small FW, with a tall TV. Do you tow this trailer nose high?
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05-25-2024, 11:43 PM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2022
Posts: 452
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im not trying to be mean here, but whoever is servicing your axles needs to be fired if this has happened twice now. im sure you dont need told, but a tire taking off could easily kill someone. i guess it would also be a good idea to figure out if the nut backed off or if the axle itself broke in either situation. in both situations theres got to be a reason this has happened twice now. ive got a fair amount of miles towing and this has never happened to me so, as others have said, this isnt a common occurance.
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05-26-2024, 04:48 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: NC
Posts: 1,684
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The entire brake assembly coming off with the wheel and tire means that the spindle nut and the 4 bolts holding the brake assembly to the axle flange were gone.
__________________
2010 Chevy G3500 6.0 Vortec
2015 Puma 30RKSS
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05-26-2024, 06:11 AM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Rossville, TN
Posts: 423
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Glad you were close to home and minor damage.
This happened to me about 20 years ago on a bass boat trailer, and I never could explain why the bearings failed.
I had to call a flat bed wrecker since there was only a spindle with the nut and pin still on it but ground up from the concrete.
__________________
2018 Ram 2500 Diesel CC
2019 Vanleigh Pinecrest 305 RLP
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05-26-2024, 09:17 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,094
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Post a pic
Without better info we're all guessing. You must have a pic or two of the damage?
Show us what the axle tip looks like. No visible damage means the cotter pin was missing or improperly installed. A bearing could have been poorly greased, burned up,seized and spun on shaft until it broke off.
Most smaller 5th wheels and trailers have axles and tires at the very limits of GVWR. It's very easy to overload some of them, and 1500-2000lb of cargo is quite common. Don't forget water in any tank adds to the cargo weight.
__________________
2011 GMC Sierra 3500HD gas 6.0 dually
1994 K1500 Suburban shop mule and plow truck
2006 Lakota 29RKT 5th wheel
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05-26-2024, 09:45 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 503
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Unfortunately, we never found the wheel assembly. I wish we had 'cause I'd be able to tell if the keeper for the nut broke or something.
These trailer axles don't use cotter pins - they have a thin metal nut-like piece that goes over the nut that holds everything together.
The trailer tows pretty level. The hitch is set low enough and the trailer axle mounts are high enough that it's not very nose up or down. I've seen some going down roads with the nose a lot higher or lower.
Yes, the brake backing plate is still attached to the axle flange, but all the brake hardware, drum, wheel, etc., is gone.
I haven't cleaned off the grease (wanted to make sure the insurance wasn't going to need any more pictures) from the spindle, but it LOOKS intact. I'm sure it's beat up from the wheel coming off, and unusable, but I haven't cleaned it off yet. There's grease on the spindle, so I can't tell if it was a bearing failure or the keeper on the big nut broke or came off. And I’m not sure how I’d tell even if I clean the spindle.
At various times I've done the bearings (in my misspent younger days I was a Ford mechanic, so I’ve packed some bearings), and for the trailer, when I've packed the bearings myself, I always used the method that Dexter specifies for setting things (which if I recall correctly was almost the same as what we did on the cars, so it wasn't anything strange or unusual.) Other times I've had one of the local shops do it when putting on tires or doing rotation or some other service.
Strangely to me, this trailer has easy-lube spindles (grease fitting in the end of the spindle) like I’ve only seen on boat trailers, so in theory, you'd never have to raise a wheel except to rotate tires. I'd think there are a lot of people with trailers that NEVER check or adjust a bearing, just squirt some grease in the axle once in a long while (or never) and leave it alone. Our previous 5th wheel, that we used for 17 or so years, had axles that had to be packed manually, so I’ve always done it that way. That 5th wheel never lost any important pieces!
Though it's happened twice, they were years apart and the service was done by different places in different towns/states, or by me, usually at the beginning of the season.
Anyhow, thanks for the thoughts, though I don't have any good information. I'll probably clean off the spindle and look at it tomorrow 'cause I believe the estimate for repairs is done so they won't need any more pictures.
BUT, my wife asked the other day (she’s a little spooked about the wheel issue) about "checking when on the road". Presuming you haven't gone 10,000 miles or some other crazy amount, and you're reasonably confident there's grease where there should be, and the bearings were adjusted when it was last greased, HOW do you/other people check the bearings/wheels when you’re on the road for several weeks? And how often do you do it?
Especially when you’re in East Overshoe, heading for parts unknown, and there’s nothing with even a traffic light, much less a competent service place, within a hundred miles?
I can grab a wheel and push on it, but I'm not going to be able to determine if there's a loose bearing that way. Other than putting a jack under it and lifting the wheels one at a time so the wheel is off the ground, I don't know of any way to check for binding or excessive play, and I’d have to pull the assembly apart to check for grease.
Going through that seems unreasonable while traveling. SO, how do y'all make sure everything is as it should be on/in the wheel assemblies when you're traveling – daily, weekly, at all?
Quote:
Without better info we're all guessing. You must have a pic or two of the damage?
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I haven't cleaned the spindle off yet, but I will, and get a picture or 2.
Quote:
Show us what the axle tip looks like. No visible damage means the cotter pin was missing or improperly installed. A bearing could have been poorly greased, burned up,seized and spun on shaft until it broke off.
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This trailer doesn't use cotter pins. There's a thin metal piece that goes over the nut that holds everything together.
Quote:
Most smaller 5th wheels and trailers have axles and tires at the very limits of GVWR. It's very easy to overload some of them, and 1500-2000lb of cargo is quite common. Don't forget water in any tank adds to the cargo weight.
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All that information is in the original post... As far as I know, it's not overloaded according to the TAG, but I'd need to weigh the trailer to see the actual weight. BUT, again, I'm PRESUMING the trailer mfr (Keystone) would leave a reasonable amount of safety margin, though when they say the GVWR is 9000 lbs and each axle is 4400 lbs, that doesn't SEEM like a lot of spare capacity. BUT, the tag SAYS there's 1950 pounds of capacity for belongings... WITH the fresh water full.
ANYHOW, IS there a good TPMS that WILL do a better job of letting us know there's a problem. Our current one has been fine, letting us know about tire problems in time to address them BEFORE anything explodes, but it DIDN'T let me know when the wheel came off. What are other people using on 5th wheels that will work better?
__________________
2011 Cougar High Country 246RL towed by a 2016 Ford F-350 Crew Cab.
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05-26-2024, 01:13 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,236
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I had a bearing go bad and seize. Replaced the axle. Next time I was working on the wheels, I discovered that the wheels on the other axle didn't have d-ring washers... I noticed as I was doing a pre-trip check and one of the wheels was definitely loose.
__________________
Al  SE Michigan, F-150 Plat SCrew, Flagstaff 26FKWS, ProPride
Tolerance will reach such a level that intelligent people will be banned from thinking so as not to offend the imbeciles. Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky, Russian Novelist
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05-26-2024, 01:46 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 28,351
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I can find Dexter 4400 E-Z Lube 6 on 5 1/2 hub & drum assembly
BUT cannot find one that DOESN'T use COTTER Pin thru axle nut/thin metal cover
??????
__________________
I took my Medication today. HAVE YOU?
Dodge 3500 w/Tractor Motor
US NAVY---USS Decatur DDG-31
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05-26-2024, 03:23 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 221
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A pic of what is left of the spindle would be very helpful
__________________
Just say no to the "payload" police.
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05-26-2024, 08:42 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2024
Location: WI Driftlesser
Posts: 2,562
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TPMS is dependent on battery life, so the unit can't communicated constantly with each sensor, the sensor batteries wouldn't have acceptable life. They may be set to alert to sudden pressure loss, but as far as we know the tire is still holding air out there somewhere.
The bearing and nut missing with no blueing from overheating is a good sign that the nut came loose. The keyed washer that keeps the bearing from spinning the nut is critical, as is the nut locking mechanism. The cotter pin is self explanatory, but millions of cars on the road use the "crimp" style nut. I recently saw a suggestion to use a chisel to cut a slot on one side that contacts the leading edge of the keyway. Don't know if that's superior to the usual staking by deforming the nut to conform to the keyway or not.
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05-26-2024, 08:54 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,094
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Read my responses in red
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkperez
Unfortunately, we never found the wheel assembly. I wish we had 'cause I'd be able to tell if the keeper for the nut broke or something.
These trailer axles don't use cotter pins - they have a thin metal nut-like piece that goes over the nut that holds everything together.
That thin metal piece that covers the nut REQUIRES a cotter pin to hold the nut from spinning loose. Just by chance, was this the left side (driver's side) wheel assembly that came off both times?
The trailer tows pretty level. The hitch is set low enough and the trailer axle mounts are high enough that it's not very nose up or down. I've seen some going down roads with the nose a lot higher or lower.
Yes, the brake backing plate is still attached to the axle flange, but all the brake hardware, drum, wheel, etc., is gone.
I haven't cleaned off the grease (wanted to make sure the insurance wasn't going to need any more pictures) from the spindle, but it LOOKS intact. I'm sure it's beat up from the wheel coming off, and unusable, but I haven't cleaned it off yet. There's grease on the spindle, so I can't tell if it was a bearing failure or the keeper on the big nut broke or came off. And I’m not sure how I’d tell even if I clean the spindle.
Well, you can snap a few pics of the ends of the axle.
At various times I've done the bearings (in my misspent younger days I was a Ford mechanic, so I’ve packed some bearings), and for the trailer, when I've packed the bearings myself, I always used the method that Dexter specifies for setting things (which if I recall correctly was almost the same as what we did on the cars, so it wasn't anything strange or unusual.) Other times I've had one of the local shops do it when putting on tires or doing rotation or some other service.
Strangely to me, this trailer has easy-lube spindles (grease fitting in the end of the spindle) like I’ve only seen on boat trailers, so in theory, you'd never have to raise a wheel except to rotate tires. I'd think there are a lot of people with trailers that NEVER check or adjust a bearing, just squirt some grease in the axle once in a long while (or never) and leave it alone. Our previous 5th wheel, that we used for 17 or so years, had axles that had to be packed manually, so I’ve always done it that way. That 5th wheel never lost any important pieces!
Though it's happened twice, they were years apart and the service was done by different places in different towns/states, or by me, usually at the beginning of the season.
Anyhow, thanks for the thoughts, though I don't have any good information. I'll probably clean off the spindle and look at it tomorrow 'cause I believe the estimate for repairs is done so they won't need any more pictures.
BUT, my wife asked the other day (she’s a little spooked about the wheel issue) about "checking when on the road". Presuming you haven't gone 10,000 miles or some other crazy amount, and you're reasonably confident there's grease where there should be, and the bearings were adjusted when it was last greased, HOW do you/other people check the bearings/wheels when you’re on the road for several weeks? And how often do you do it?
Especially when you’re in East Overshoe, heading for parts unknown, and there’s nothing with even a traffic light, much less a competent service place, within a hundred miles?
I can grab a wheel and push on it, but I'm not going to be able to determine if there's a loose bearing that way. Other than putting a jack under it and lifting the wheels one at a time so the wheel is off the ground, I don't know of any way to check for binding or excessive play, and I’d have to pull the assembly apart to check for grease.
Going through that seems unreasonable while traveling. SO, how do y'all make sure everything is as it should be on/in the wheel assemblies when you're traveling – daily, weekly, at all?
I've done a few 10 000km to 16 000km trips. Mine has NevRLub axles so I check carefully, measure runout with a dial gauge and do a rough inspection on the road every day, Just a quick shakedown looking for excessive play.
I haven't cleaned the spindle off yet, but I will, and get a picture or 2.
This trailer doesn't use cotter pins. There's a thin metal piece that goes over the nut that holds everything together.
Never seen one without a cotter pin holding that on. Pics are helpful.
All that information is in the original post... As far as I know, it's not overloaded according to the TAG, but I'd need to weigh the trailer to see the actual weight. BUT, again, I'm PRESUMING the trailer mfr (Keystone) would leave a reasonable amount of safety margin, though when they say the GVWR is 9000 lbs and each axle is 4400 lbs, that doesn't SEEM like a lot of spare capacity. BUT, the tag SAYS there's 1950 pounds of capacity for belongings... WITH the fresh water full.
ANYHOW, IS there a good TPMS that WILL do a better job of letting us know there's a problem. Our current one has been fine, letting us know about tire problems in time to address them BEFORE anything explodes, but it DIDN'T let me know when the wheel came off. What are other people using on 5th wheels that will work better?
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Hopefully we'll get to the bottom of this.
__________________
2011 GMC Sierra 3500HD gas 6.0 dually
1994 K1500 Suburban shop mule and plow truck
2006 Lakota 29RKT 5th wheel
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