Factory Tours - Initial Impressions

[aknavy]

I toured the Jayco and Heartland factories today, here are my initial impressions:

Jayco: Allowed pictures and video, which was nice. Also, was actually in production, so we could see the workers at their job. Unfortunately, they were producing the Eagle line, not the North Point or Pinnacle as we expected. Running 12 today - which seems like alot, and may account for some of my observations. Seems like they have the ability to produce a quality unit, but speed works against that.

Using color coded pex - good.
Small underbelly heat ducts.
Insulation was short of actually reaching the frame - some gaps as much as 3-5 inches.
The were rough in handling the cabinets/material.
Linoleum roller missed huge patches while rolling.
Wood joints - often an 1/8 inch gap.

This one was big - the aluminum welds in the walls were horrible. Some full welds were barely spot welds. Not good.

The roof material was wood - and the trusses looked sturdy, but the side rails holding them together were pretty rickety.

Heartland:

Huge difference between the factory tours - Jayco was set up like a guided tour, Heartland was a sales rep taking us thru the factory after the work was done for the day. As a result, we were abl to touch and look up close. No pictures allowed...was disappointed.

Roof decking looked pretty lightweight. The use aluminum trusses, and the side rail was sturdier.

Foam insulation - wasn't able to see it in the process of install, so not sure about gaps in it. Hoping that it's sized appropriately.

Wooden framing had some gaps, but not as bad as Jayco.

Wall welds - much better, still not perfect.

Rolled roof joint - nice feature to prevent water intrusion.

Seemed to be alot of nail heads protruding up to a 1/4 inch in several places. I'm sure this isn't good long term.

Overall, the Heartlands seemed to be a higher quality product, but again, we were shown the Jayco Eagles, so it wasn't a fair comparison. With lower production numbers, I think quality would be better. The abiltiy to produce quality is there, but the attention to detail wasn't. If I buy new, I may try to do the work to find a unit that was produced during a week that number were low....good luck!

All in all, seeing the materials and build process, I now understand why there are so many issues to fix with these things. More time and attention would go along way to addressing the quality control issues. Tomorrow is the Cedar Creek factory, then we're moving on.


Oh yeah...Amish this, Amish that, they do so great of a job, we're the only one's doing all the crap that's industry standard, blah blah blah.....

[Old-Biscuit]

Piece mill and quality do NOT go hand and hand

12 units scheduled.........get them done by Noon everybody can go home ----full pay cause paid by the 'piece' not by the hour

Heartland tours done AFTER workers gone so tours don't get in way/hold up production line.

GO.GO.GO.

Slap it together.....get it out the door.....dealer can deal with face to face



Some workers have NEVER held tools before.....

[aknavy]

Yep, as soon as they said that they don't have a set schedule and work till the quota is done for the day....well, we all know what that does to quality. If pay is the same and I go home an hour earlier cause I didn't redo something that was messed up, well, I'm home an hour earlier. Almost all the issues were attention to detail.

[MGrawe]

Great brief on the tours, be sure to add feedback on the Cedar Creek tour tomorrow.

[mds1]

Thanks for posting about the factory tour. Really interested in what you see at the Cedar Creek Factory. We just finished one at Augusta RV. Unfortunately they were in the process of moving so we did not see any during the actual build process. Augusta pays workers by the hour which is a plus.

Looking forward to your notes on the Cedar Creek.

[aknavy]

Cedar Creek

This one was way out in the country, surrounded by a bunch of other RV manufacturers. Seems that if the RV industry has a problem, this whole area would be unemployed. Everything revolves around them, event the Amish that work in the factories.

Initial impression - work was done for the day, so there weren't many workers around the factory. The ones that we did run into acted like they knew each other pretty well, and it seemed like a smaller, more small business run place. They said that their workers are out around noon every day, and that they work hourly, but have a quota to meet. They were running the Silverback, and had one Champaine in the last stage of production.

Frame - Same Lippert construction as the others. I swear it's kind of flimsy, to my standards, but all three use them. The welds on the frames across the board aren't great, but they weren't horrible either. What I did like - they use a formed plastic piece for their underbelly, which seems head and shoulders above the coroplast crap. It's in four foot sections, followed by foil and batt insulation, then the rest.

The tanks and components under the trailer seemed to be on par with everyone else.

Insulation was run rail to rail - no gaps, and that was consistent throughout - floor, walls, and ceiling.

Walls - huge difference here. The other two companies used aluminum welded/framed laminate walls, these guys use a aluminum frame, screwed wall, then hang the interior wall. Once that's done, the wall is placed on the frame, wires ran, insulated, then hang an external wall. No laminate wall. It actually looks like a row of small houses being built.

The wall frame - set up on a jig, then glued (think liquid nails type), gusseted, and screwed together. The joints have a rounded gusset with glue and four-more screws holding it all together. Of course, it seems that I'm the only one that can see screws that aren't driven all the way in, similar to the other factories, but it wasn't too bad here.

The explanation for not welding was that it allows flex when bouncing down the road. The glue doesn't fully harden, leaving a tight bond with a little flex. Not sure about the screws - will they back out? Who knows with the glue there.

The outer wall is put in place, then screwed around the edge, and glued along the studs. This is the one place that I question this construction method - without the ability to put pressure accros the entire structure, there is some variance in how "tight" the bond is with the studs. The do clamp braces on in the bigger spaces, but there are still areas that aren't quite tight.

The other major difference is in slide construction - instead of using the cut out laminate, cause there isn't any, they custom make each slide. As such, it seemed that there was a little more variance in the fit and finish. Same construction as the main trailer.

Outer wall - gel coat. Significantly thicker than the laminate outer walls, and apparently standard fiberglass repair process applies, meaning no de-lamination.

Interior - really nice, better than the rest. Nice design, well built, good materials. Actual name brand electronics and furniture, not that Furrion stuff.

Roof - aluminum trusses, bat insulation, poly air duct that seems like it will work well. Also, forgot to mention, they use a central aluminum duct underneath for hear. Roof construction seemed to be pretty good.

Slide seals - single slide seals, with the EPDM behind for a second seal. This is where Heartland trailers definately go a step above, as they have two.

All in all, seemed to be pretty well put together. I do wonder if the different construction style makes a big impact on quality. Anyone have experience?

Jayco - out, can't abide with those welds in the walls.
Hearland - Most bang for your buck, and still "quality" construction.
Cedar Creek - seems to be pretty well built, not all the standard features that Heartland has, and totally different construction. They advertise it as a feature, the standard seems to be laminate. Not sure what to think.

[jimcumminsw]

Thanks for the report and have you seen the Cedar Creek construction videos that are on line?

I have owned three different 5er's all built by different manufactures with different construction methods. An by far our 2016, 34RL Cedar Creek is the best built unit that we have owned so far. We have put 12,000 + miles on our unit so far without any major issues.

One item I like about the Cedar Creek line and in fact all of the Forest River products is their customer service, you can actually talk to a real live person at the factory if you have an issues. Another feature is the annual F.R.O.G. (Forest River Owners Group) international rally held each year at the Elkhart County fair grounds in IN.

Forest River will work and repair up to five items on your unit for free. I have seen early Cedar Creeks and other units have awnings, TV, appliances, chairs, axles and brake system repaired/replaced at this rally. In fact a couple of units where taken back to the factory and had the front caps replaced due to fading of the caps.

[aknavy]

That's good to know! I have seen the videos, and like what I've seen so far. Out of the three tours, only the Jayco convinced me that it was the wrong trailer for me.

[dexters]

Originally Posted by aknavy

Oh yeah...Amish this, Amish that, they do so great of a job, we're the only one's doing all the crap that's industry standard, blah blah blah.....

Were they saying the Amish were doing it to industry standard?

If so, I think we all know if there are standards; they are not too high.

And, I don't think the Amish are any better then the general public or other TT workers.

[dexters]

Originally Posted by aknavy

I toured the Jayco and Heartland factories today, here are my initial impressions:

..

Did you see or hear anything about quality control - meaning - some going over the unit while and after it is being constructed?

[racer4]

Good report and observations.

I bought Cedar Creek mostly because of the hung wall construction. There are no laminated walls, so delamination is not possible.

Other reasons are better components/appliances, better woodwork, better factory customer service than most, A/C supply and return ducts (much quieter) and a floor plan that I liked a lot.

When I did the factory tour, the tour guide was the plant manager. He said their construction method (hung walls - no lamination) cost 20% more than laminated construction. Ask yourself why they would spend 20% more on "hung walls" rather than cutting costs like most do. Some other brand that use/did use "hung walls" are DRV Mobile Suites, Carriage and Newmar motorhomes.

Regarding the aluminum wall frame, Sikaflex adhesive, and the corner brackets, I seem to remember from SunnyBrook in the 1990's that the screws are primarily there to hold the brackets in place while the Sikaflex adhesive sets. If they are are little loose, it might not matter after the Sikaflex adhesive sets up. SunnyBrook used that method for assembling the wall frame in the 1990's.

Cedar Creek and some other Forest River brands sell a 2nd year warranty for around $200-250, but I think you have to buy it soon after the trailer purchase.

Good luck and happy shopping!

[chaps2018]

Thanks for sharing your findings. I suspect that only a small fraction of RV owners that WANT to take a factory tour never get to so we all get the benefit of your visit by the time you spent organizing your notes and writing this up for the forum.

I am on the 2nd Starcraft (made by Jayco with mostly Jayco label material). It has been well traveled and we enjoy it very much. I have had other brands and helped friends repair their other brands I saw a huge difference in quality of materials and construction between Starcraft and the others.

So when it came time to look at a new trailer in the past 6 months, we looked ONLY at Jayco Eagle line. This is for three reason 1-Personal history with Starcraft quality 2-Jayco 2 yr warranty and 3-feature set (very good interior and exterior lighting, Thermal package 0-100 deg, and general intuitive/thoughtful design).

That said, I read your post with great interest and will not likely follow through with the Jayco Eagle.

Honestly, like many of you, I would like a new trailer but really at a crossroads as to what brand to pursue. While very frustrated, my inclination is not to give this industry the $50-$70K for the trailer I would like but rather stay below $30k and limit my exposure given the "industry standard quality" that was discussed earlier.

So...any plans to go to the Sandpiper factory in the near future...(had to ask :-)

Thanks again for the great discussion.

[aknavy]

Every factory says the same thing - we use Amish craftsmen, they're the best wood workers around, etc, etc. Actually, now that I think of it, Cedar Creek didn't say that. Also, Heartland and Jayco both claim alot of stuff they do is exclusive to them, yet most of it seems to be industry standard. I will say Hearland did have some nice little things that were unique to them - double slide seals, a little tab to keep the seal from folding over, a frame ledge for the wall to sit on, although I think Jayco had that for most of the frame as well.

Here's a link to a folder with Jayco pictures - not organized, and most aren't that great cause we couldn't get close:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...m8?usp=sharing

And Cedar Creek:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...00?usp=sharing

[aknavy]

I'd love to do more factory tours, but they all have limited schedules and they overlap. It would be really nice if they could look at each others schedules and make it convenient for the shopper to hit multiple places in a short time frame, but I think you'd need two weeks there to tour a bunch. I may hit another on the way home, depending on schedule.