Factory Visit - Augusta RV

[AdamAnt]

Hey guys & gals!

My wife and I are leaving next week for a factory tour of Entegra (DP) and Augusta RV (5th Wheel). Oddly enough, we find them to be comparable, from a liability perspective. Perhaps the Augusta moreso than the Entegra.

Having never been to a factory, what advice would you give us in terms of what questions we should ask the manufacturer, that may not be super obvious to us.

Looking for some candid advice from you experienced owners out there. All tips and thoughts appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

-Adam

[JDT]

I am assuming your auto spell meant livability instead of liability. We've only done one factory tour and that was when we bought our Excel. I was more concerned about how the frame was built than anything else. It's been awhile since we had our dp so kind of lost track but I think most dp motorhome builders use chassis supplied by Freightliner or Spartan so that part may be a wash, depending on your preference. I would look at construction techniques, attention to detail, workmanship on things like cabinets and trim, quality of the aftermarket products used like fridges, pumps, etc. Look for things like access to the stuff that needs or may need servicing. Also, make sure they use good tires, which I'm sure these companies do.

Make a list of questions you come up with and make sure they get a good answer, not just sales hype. Good luck.

[jtbuilds]

Most of this pertains to question regarding a 5th wheel

**Ask them (this is very important) how much the pin (5th wheel pin box) deflects under (static) a load.
For this measurement the front of the trailer needs to be lifted (forklift) until the front jacks are just 1/16" off the ground. The height to the bottom of the pin is measured before lifting and with the jack just off the ground. Ideally this should be done with empty and full tanks.
If the difference is:
--1/2" that is good
--3/4" is O.K.
--1" or more....myself I would walk away
Once the trailer is moving (dynamic) down the road the deflection will increase by 50% - 100%.

How much of the welding on the frame is up hand vs down hand

Is the flux removed from the welds before painting

Do they seal the seam between the I Beam and the tube on the bottom of the I beam to prevent corrosion between the 2 pieces

New Horizons uses a 3x4 box tube on the bottom of the fame. August uses 2x2 box tube

There are no ribs in the top of the grey black and water tanks. What prevents the top of the tanks from sagging (the plastic is soft and will stretch) and loosing capacity.

If there is a water/hydraulic leak or the basement is not sealed (electrical and slide openings) 100% the fiberglass insulation becomes a wet sponge an takes months (maybe years) to dry out. Why isn't rigid (extruded polystyrene that does not absorb water) insulation used

The heater duct runs are long why not use metal ducting that would allow for more air flow and make the heater more efficient.

Is the cover on/under the basement all one piece. How does one get into the basement to service the tanks plumbing hyd. lines or remove wet soggy fiberglass insulation

Is there any cross bracing/gusseting next the the leveling jacks that will prevent the jacks from twisting. Cross bracing will makes the trailer more stable when it is up on the jacks.

Any dips in the filler and vent hoses for the water tank that will allow water to be trapped in the hoses.

Is the roof EPDM TPO or fiberglass. EPDM being the cheapest

Why used Thermal Wrap (Astrofoil) on the bottom of the trailer is really only (marginally) useful on the top of the trailer.

Stay Away from Foil-Faced Bubble Wrap | GreenBuildingAdvisor.com

How many batteries..is there enough room for (a min of ) 4 -6v batteries

What is the ga (4ga) of wire between the batter(s) and the distribution panel.

What gauge of alum tube. (New Horizons is 1/8") ....putting wood blocking in any alum tube provides a much better grip for the screws.

The biggest enemy of a 4 season trailer is condensation. What is done to prevent moisture from getting into the roof/walls.

Does the roof cavity have vents that will to allow the condensation/moisture to dry/escape.

Augusta may be willing to make some changes. I'm sure they'll be thinking how many thousand more does the customer want to pay.....

[AdamAnt]

Originally Posted by JDT

I am assuming your auto spell meant livability instead of liability. We've only done one factory tour and that was when we bought our Excel. I was more concerned about how the frame was built than anything else. It's been awhile since we had our dp so kind of lost track but I think most dp motorhome builders use chassis supplied by Freightliner or Spartan so that part may be a wash, depending on your preference. I would look at construction techniques, attention to detail, workmanship on things like cabinets and trim, quality of the aftermarket products used like fridges, pumps, etc. Look for things like access to the stuff that needs or may need servicing. Also, make sure they use good tires, which I'm sure these companies do.

Make a list of questions you come up with and make sure they get a good answer, not just sales hype. Good luck.

JDT, You are correct. Livability, not liability. Haha. Although... [emoji6]

[clint1507]

jtbuilds. Great info very important questions

[jtbuilds]

Originally Posted by clint1507

jtbuilds. Great info very important questions

You are welcome. There is no perfect trailer but having the (non marketing info) information allows one to chose a product that suits the budget.

[rjwalton]

Please report back your impressions of both manufacturers!

[MtnTrek]

Originally Posted by rjwalton

Please report back your impressions of both manufacturers!

Originally Posted by jtbuilds

Most of this pertains to question regarding a 5th wheel
Augusta may be willing to make some changes. I'm sure they'll be thinking how many thousand more does the customer want to pay.....

I am familiar with and agree that there're many advanced engineering and quality assurance issues that can be explored. Many of the mentioned could make the difference between a $80K and a $375+K coach. There will be a cost for having frame welds x-rayed and magni-fluxed prior to electro-plating. The more aviation / commercial spec. grade the more expensive

Interesting comparison between a DP and a trailer, but certain factors will carry over.
Some items such as motor chassis' and trailer frames may be coming from other vendors obviously, so their reputations will have to stand on their own. You'll be comparing the coachwork etc.
It's not uncommon for Prevost or New Horizon owners to visit the facility multiple times and interact with engineering during the process as it progresses.
The main value of factory tours for the rest of us perhaps would be in the volume of them that you go on. The comparison between the overall atmosphere of the manufacturing facility. Neatness, organization, the demeanor of the employees will start to tell you something. Look around at what the tour guide is not showing you.
Ask about their rework procedures, PDI inspections. Can any assembly process employee stop the line in the event they spot a problem(s)?
Are the line employees hourly, and graded by # of defects, or simply allowed to make their piece count at break-neck speed then go home early? Do they rely on selling dealers to do any of the PDI and corrections?

Best of luck on your adventures.

[jtbuilds]

Originally Posted by MtnTrek

I am familiar with and agree that there're many advanced engineering and quality assurance issues that can be explored. Many of the mentioned could make the difference between a $80K and a $375+K coach. There will be a cost for having frame welds x-rayed and magni-fluxed prior to electro-plating. The more aviation / commercial spec. grade the more expensive

I'm wondering what I said that has NDT (non destructive testing) come up.

[roothoss1282]

Originally Posted by clint1507

jtbuilds. Great info very important questions

X2 great info

[jtbuilds]

Originally Posted by roothoss1282

X2 great info

You're welcome!

[mds1]

Here is the list of questions we had before we toured the Augusta RV Factory: The list was after comparing the Augusta Ambition to others in or near the same price point.

Augusta Ambition Factory Tour 11/2016 Questions.

Do you use the hybrid chases with the 2” box frame under the 12” I beam in the Ambition that is the same as the Luxe.

Do you double up the outriggers by the slides? Explain use of the rack and pinion system, which I’ve been told are the best.

Do you use the thicker steel on the frame?

I need a better explanation of why hung walls are more expensive to build. And what is the gluing process for insulation. Some say hung walls are not as quiet as laminated.

Even the best designed, best construction material usage, will not overcome poor labor. How do you handle supervision, inspection and incentives/pay for employees? Do you drug test?

Is the underbelly insulated to include the underbelly sidewalls?

How do I get the trailer serviced when I’m not close to Indiana? And do I call customer service or am I at the mercy of a non-Augusta dealership? After purchase customer care and service would be a tiebreaker.

What is the durability of the graphics or would you consider discounting a full body paint?

Can we get side tables next to the sofa if there is room? What about minor changes during construction?

Need to confirm we can get a gas/elec fridge.

Any 12 volt outlets?

Need to know dry and gross weights?

Satellite prep? Front jack control at front or is that a non-issue.

What about remote control for slides so we can be outside watching.

I know R ratings insulation is not the best way to judge, but do you have any and were these tested in a 0 to 100 degree chamber.

Check to see if studs are welded on both sides.

Wonder if we can hear the AC running.

Make sure to test the furniture.


Financial backing. I assume the merge with The RV Factory is good.

I’m having trouble justifying a 19,500 pound trailer against the 16,500 class, knowing a lot of people who full time in the relatively lighter trailers. And the Vilano is a competitor even if it’s a price point lower, just above the Montana/Bighorn crowd in price only. We will be comparing the Ambition against at least a well-equipped Heartland Landmark.

What is the name/phone number of the person who administrates your owners group? I tried to sign up the day they put it on the web.

Explain true high gloss gel coat vs Filon or others. (note to self- Excel used high gloss not Filon):

[jtbuilds]

Originally Posted by mds1

Here is the list of questions we had before we toured the Augusta RV Factory: The list was after comparing the Augusta Ambition to others in or near the same price point.

Augusta Ambition Factory Tour 11/2016 Questions.

Do you use the hybrid chases with the 2” box frame under the 12” I beam in the Ambition that is the same as the Luxe.

Do you double up the outriggers by the slides? Explain use of the rack and pinion system, which I’ve been told are the best.

Do you use the thicker steel on the frame?

I need a better explanation of why hung walls are more expensive to build. And what is the gluing process for insulation. Some say hung walls are not as quiet as laminated.

Even the best designed, best construction material usage, will not overcome poor labor. How do you handle supervision, inspection and incentives/pay for employees? Do you drug test?

Is the underbelly insulated to include the underbelly sidewalls?

How do I get the trailer serviced when I’m not close to Indiana? And do I call customer service or am I at the mercy of a non-Augusta dealership? After purchase customer care and service would be a tiebreaker.

What is the durability of the graphics or would you consider discounting a full body paint?

Can we get side tables next to the sofa if there is room? What about minor changes during construction?

Need to confirm we can get a gas/elec fridge.

Any 12 volt outlets?

Need to know dry and gross weights?

Satellite prep? Front jack control at front or is that a non-issue.

What about remote control for slides so we can be outside watching.

I know R ratings insulation is not the best way to judge, but do you have any and were these tested in a 0 to 100 degree chamber.

Check to see if studs are welded on both sides.

Wonder if we can hear the AC running.

Make sure to test the furniture.


Financial backing. I assume the merge with The RV Factory is good.

I’m having trouble justifying a 19,500 pound trailer against the 16,500 class, knowing a lot of people who full time in the relatively lighter trailers. And the Vilano is a competitor even if it’s a price point lower, just above the Montana/Bighorn crowd in price only. We will be comparing the Ambition against at least a well-equipped Heartland Landmark.

What is the name/phone number of the person who administrates your owners group? I tried to sign up the day they put it on the web.

Explain true high gloss gel coat vs Filon or others. (note to self- Excel used high gloss not Filon):

Great information on you're website.....the quote regarding the frame failures is interesting. The characteristics of steel mean that it will crack or partially fail which is not a media event so we don't hear about it.

It is best to look at trailer frames for the amount of deflection rather than thinking will it break. A frame with less defection will mean there is less wear and tear on sidewalls, the roof and cabinetry.


PS ...ISO board insulation looses R value the colder it gets. The gas inside the board condenses....liquid conducts heat more than the gas.........by gluing and screwing wall framing factories don't need to hire/train $$ welders.

[AdamAnt]

Hey JT,

Wanted to get back with you and thank you for the detailed thoughts. I owe you a couple of beers!

My wife and I are working our way across the country as we speak. Spent a couple days in New Orleans from Phoenix and now in Nashville enjoying the rolling hills. We are scheduled to meet with Augusta on Tuesday of next week and then Entegra on Wednesday. Should be interesting.

Getting back to the point of this thread, I had a conversation with my rep over at Augusta and posed a slew of questions to her - some of which were the questions you had suggested. I posed these questions in advance because the last thing I wanted was to show up to the factory, on to receive a ton of "Unknown" answers in person. That would have been frustrating.

Your deflection question is beyond relevant. Perhaps the most important question any 5'er shopper should know the answer to. So thank you for that. I had not even considered it.

Of the questions posed, our rep was good to forward them to her engineer, rather than attempt to guess her way through it. I appreciate that about her. Lots of honesty, so it seems. The answers below are the verbatim answers I received in an email from the engineer.

Overall, it's the "unknown" responses that concern me most, as it shows no attempt by Augusta to identify themselves, independent of a customer's inquiry. I thought the 2x2 vs. 3x4 response was entertaining as well.

Here are some of your questions that I posed:

How much does the pin (5th wheel pin box) deflect under (static) load? Has this ever been tested? If not, why?

Unknown, Unknown, there are no known issues.

How much of the welding on the frame is up hand vs down hand?

Unknown, would need to check with Lippert

Is the flux removed from the welds before painting?

Unknown, would need to check with Lippert

Do you seal the seam between the I Beam and the tube on the bottom of the I beam to prevent corrosion between the 2 pieces?

No

Why use a 2x2 box vs. a 3x4 for instance?

Marketing

Are there support ribs present in the the grey/black/water tanks for longer term structural support?

No

Is the basement sealed to prevent water from affecting the insulation in the event of a leak? How?

No

Is the cover on/under the basement all one piece?

Yes

Is there cross bracing/gusseting next to the leveling jacks that will prevent the jacks from twisting + stabilize the trailer while lifted?

Yes

Is the roof TPO or fiberglass?

TPO

Why use Thermal Wrap (Astrofoil) on the trailer considering its exceptionally marginal cost to value ratio & extremely low R-rating? What's the quantifiable benefit?

Marketing, low benefit if any

How many batteries (12v versus 6v) is there enough room for? Can this be customized?

4 batteries, 6 or 12 volt

What is the gauge of wire between the battery(s) and the distribution panel? How about the solar wire gauge from panel to invertor?

Both are 6 ga.

What is done to prevent moisture from getting into the roof/walls? Especially considering traditional fiberglass insulation is being used throughout.

Caulking seals all exterior joints

Does the roof cavity have vents that will allow the condensation/moisture to dry/escape?

No