Girard Tankless Hot Water

[Bruce H.]

New member here. Learned so much about the Girard tankless water heaters that I had to join. I have a Lance 1575 with the Girard heater. Had the same problem with cycling from too hot to to cold as the incoming water temps have increased through the summer (it worked fine last winter here in California).

I corrected the miswiring of the Auto/Low switch, and on Low the temperature stabilized at 114 degrees with no cycling. Still too hot for showers. Contacted Girard and they advised that their Oxygenics showerhead was too restrictive, and to replace it with a less restrictive head. I got an AquaSource Model #3071-332 (about $13)from Lowes and removed the flow restrictor. I tested the hot water flow rate with the valve fully open, and it improved from 0.82 gpm with the Oxygenics showerhead to 1.22 gpm with the Lowes showerhead, which is an improvement of 49%. Best of all, the temps improved from 114 degrees with the Oxygenics to 104 degrees with the Lowes showerhead.

I should add that this testing and modification was with an incoming water temperature of 68 degrees and 28 psi. With higher incoming temps, there may still be problems with getting showerable temps...

Bruce H.

[jspande]

Bruce, great info - it's always good to get actual numbers.

I think I mentioned it earlier but it may bear repeating. You don't actually have to give up the Oxygenics shower head. The exact same result can be obtained by simply opening another hot water faucet while you take a shower.

If you're only occasionally faced with warm source water (and have hookups when you are) then this can be a practical work-around to this problem, which can happen with any tankless water heater.

[Rvcamper]

Originally Posted by Bruce H.

New member here. Learned so much about the Girard tankless water heaters that I had to join. I have a Lance 1575 with the Girard heater. Had the same problem with cycling from too hot to to cold as the incoming water temps have increased through the summer (it worked fine last winter here in California).

I corrected the miswiring of the Auto/Low switch, and on Low the temperature stabilized at 114 degrees with no cycling. Still too hot for showers. Contacted Girard and they advised that their Oxygenics showerhead was too restrictive, and to replace it with a less restrictive head. I got an AquaSource Model #3071-332 (about $13)from Lowes and removed the flow restrictor. I tested the hot water flow rate with the valve fully open, and it improved from 0.82 gpm with the Oxygenics showerhead to 1.22 gpm with the Lowes showerhead, which is an improvement of 49%. Best of all, the temps improved from 114 degrees with the Oxygenics to 104 degrees with the Lowes showerhead.

I should add that this testing and modification was with an incoming water temperature of 68 degrees and 28 psi. With higher incoming temps, there may still be problems with getting showerable temps...

Bruce H.

Bruce
Thanks for the input on this subject and your experience. I have to say, if we as consumers, have to do this much adjusting, research and trial and error "fixing", changing and computations to get an occasionally working unit then the unit is flawed in design. It is ludicrous that I have to turn on another faucet in the RV to take a shower. What does that say about conservation? Also, what happens when the 28psi drops to 20 psi while your granddaughter is in the shower? Answer? The water temp goes up and you have a screaming child. Girard needs to " Pony Up" and recall this system. Forest River regrets ever putting them in their units and another manufacture flat turned it down. I love the concept, it can work, but the Girard unit in my RV is not the way to go. Sorry. Tom Johnson Camping Center has my RV now for 2 weeks. As of now they are still not satisfied that it will work properly. I personally refuse to jump through hoops, align the planets, turn this and that, and go through 14 other steps to take a shower. That is not my idea of a relaxing weekend or vacation in the RV lifestyle. Besides, I paid good money that my wife and I worked hard for. I will not settle for anything less than getting in the shower turning on the water, making a quick adjustment that I can count on remaining constant for the duration of the time it takes me to shower. I think that's fair. Don't you?

[Bruce H.]

Originally Posted by Rvcamper

Bruce
I will not settle for anything less than getting in the shower turning on the water, making a quick adjustment that I can count on remaining constant for the duration of the time it takes me to shower. I think that's fair. Don't you?

Actually, I am willing to go through the growing pains of learning to use the Girard tankless heater. Lance is using it only in its two smallest trailers. We love our Lance 1575, and last winter the Girard worked so well that I wondered why Lance didn't put it in all their trailers. I loved the endless hot water and luxurious showers when camping. The challenge is to extend that to the rest of the year. Looking forward to trying jspande's tip about opening another hot water valve.

Must say, though, I have looked at the alternatives. The only water heater that would fit in the same space as the Girard is the six gallon Suburban, and I don't think we would be happy with that small of a heater.

Bruce H.

[Rvcamper]

All Concerned: Tom Johnson's Camping Center in Marion, NC has had my Camper for 3 weeks now. After an exhaustive and extensive attempt and many conversations with the Girard techs, they have finally come to the conclusion the Girard Tankless System is not a workable system for my camper. They are now installing a 10 gallon quick recovery conventional water heating system. If you are not COMPLETELY satisfied with the operation of the Girard Tankless System, you need to go to your dealer and request a replacement. Fleetwood and other RV manufactures turned down this system for their units because of the erratic temps. Great idea for the RV industry, however this tankless manufacturer has some work to do before it is consumer ready.

[POPPASMURF]

I have spent a lot of years installing & servicing tankless water heaters. May I suggest one possible safe control would be a mixing valve on the hot outlet from the heater. It mixes hot from the heater with a cold supply to give you a mixed hot water temp- of what ever temp you set it at. Honeywell makes a reasonably priced unit. They don't put degree numbers on the setting knob (liabilty issues) but a little fiddling and as long as the heater is making hot water at a temp greater than the set point (and you are flowing greater than min flow through heater) you will have consistant hot water temp at faucets.

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by POPPASMURF

I have spent a lot of years installing & servicing tankless water heaters. May I suggest one possible safe control would be a mixing valve on the hot outlet from the heater. It mixes hot from the heater with a cold supply to give you a mixed hot water temp- of what ever temp you set it at. Honeywell makes a reasonably priced unit. They don't put degree numbers on the setting knob (liabilty issues) but a little fiddling and as long as the heater is making hot water at a temp greater than the set point (and you are flowing greater than min flow through heater) you will have consistant hot water temp at faucets.

That wouldn't work because it would reduce water flow through the Girard resulting in even higher water temperatures coming out of the Girard. Girard advises against mixing hot and cold water to control water temperature because of this and because it can cause the water heater to cycle on and off. It doesn't matter if the mixing occurs at the water heater or at a faucet.

[POPPASMURF]

Sorry but it WOULD work. It doesn't matter how hot the tankless gets-the mixing valve gives one preset temp. The key word is MIXING- the tankless can do its crazy thing and as I said previous- as long as you have flow through the tankless above minumum-it will fire- doesn't matter if the water comes out of it at 180F that water is mixed down to the set point of the mixing valve. The other thing is-all better installation of showers or tub & showers are now installing scald-guard faucets, just for the safety factor- whether in an RV or home.There are some plumbing jurisdictions in North America now that are mandating mixing valves be installed on all hot water heaters.

[Mplawrence]

We give up! We have an appointment with a local dealer to replace the Girard Tankless hot water heater with a six-gallon hot water tank. Forest River has agreed to replace the unit at no cost to us. I posted the original post on this stream.

I'd be interested to know how many on this stream and others have replaced their unit with a hot water tank and if it works fine now.
Mary

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by POPPASMURF

Sorry but it WOULD work. It doesn't matter how hot the tankless gets-the mixing valve gives one preset temp. The key word is MIXING- the tankless can do its crazy thing and as I said previous- as long as you have flow through the tankless above minumum-it will fire- doesn't matter if the water comes out of it at 180F that water is mixed down to the set point of the mixing valve. The other thing is-all better installation of showers or tub & showers are now installing scald-guard faucets, just for the safety factor- whether in an RV or home.There are some plumbing jurisdictions in North America now that are mandating mixing valves be installed on all hot water heaters.

You are missing the point that water temperature in the Girards are controlled by the volume of water flowing through the unit. The more water flowing through the Girard, the lower the temperature. Reduce the flow and the water temperature will go up.

If you add cold water to the hot water coming out of the Girard, you will reduce the amount of water flowing through the Girard. That will cause the temperature of the water coming out of the Girard to rise. That will cause the mixing valve to add more cold water. This cycle will continue until the Girard shuts off from too little water flow. Then the mixing valve will stop adding cold water, allowing more flow through the Girard, allowing it to fire up again, and the whole cycle will start again.

[Fred1609]

What a nightmare this must be....no matter how this is spun, this system had no business in any RV until it was 100%. Girard and Forest River I assume didn't outfit a bunch of TT and hand them to joe 6pack and his family to try for a season

[POPPASMURF]

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

You are missing the point that water temperature in the Girards are controlled by the volume of water flowing through the unit. The more water flowing through the Girard, the lower the temperature. Reduce the flow and the water temperature will go up.

If you add cold water to the hot water coming out of the Girard, you will reduce the amount of water flowing through the Girard. That will cause the temperature of the water coming out of the Girard to rise. That will cause the mixing valve to add more cold water. This cycle will continue until the Girard shuts off from too little water flow. Then the mixing valve will stop adding cold water, allowing more flow through the Girard, allowing it to fire up again, and the whole cycle will start again.

I'm sorry YOU chose not to read ALL of my posting-I believe I clearly stated-"as long as the minumum flow for the tankless is maintained" Obviously if the minimum flow were maintained-the tank would NOT shut off. This tank will always be problematic because it does not have a modulating gas valve control- it is only slightly better than hanging a hose up in the sunshine- then again maybe it isn't.

[LadyFitz...]

Originally Posted by POPPASMURF

I'm sorry YOU chose not to read ALL of my posting-I believe I clearly stated-"as long as the minumum flow for the tankless is maintained" Obviously if the minimum flow were maintained-the tank would NOT shut off...

And you aren't reading my posts. Minimum flow will most likely not be maintained. There is a reason why Girard instructs people to NOT blend hot and cold water.

Originally Posted by POPPASMURF

...This tank will always be problematic because it does not have a modulating gas valve control- it is only slightly better than hanging a hose up in the sunshine- then again maybe it isn't.

There are people who have had good results with the Girard. The RVs having problems with it have plumbing systems that will not allow adequate flow. Sadly, many RV manufacturers have been just slapping them into their RVs without making sure they have enough flow. You are correct that a modulating gas valve is superior.

[Rvcamper]

It has been a while since I updated on this subject. After 4 weeks of trial, error and discussions with Girard, Tom Johnson Camping Center in Marion NC has installed a 10 gallon heater in my 302RL Wildcat. They are now refusing to accept any more units with this system. They had six other Wildcats in the service bays with the same issue as me. In summary of this saga, no system should be this difficult to operate. I feel confident I did everything possible to make it work. In closing, special thanks to Gary Stroud, Chuck Burden and Tom Johnson's Camping Center. Good luck to all the other poor unfortunate souls that are still enduring the Girard Tankless Water System. This is RvCamper over and out.